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Quote:Doctors in Belgium have granted a medically depressed woman the right to end her own life.
The 24-year-old woman, named only as ‘Laura’, told doctors she had suffered from depression since she was a child and wished to end her life, local newspaper De Morgen reported.
Laura, who entered a psychiatric facility when she was 21, told the publication: “life, that’s not for me.”
"Death feels to me not as a choice. If I had a choice, I would choose a bearable life, but I have done everything and that was unsuccessful," she told the newspaper.
I disagree with this, Depression isn't terminal. The feeling like there's no hope and no other options but suicide isn't a rational thought, that's the Depression talking. I've felt completely hopeless and suicidal myself for a long period of time and if euthanasia was an option for me then I think i'd have taken it, but now I have a somewhat enjoyable life and the hope of improving further - I wouldn't have that if I was dead
But I think this raises lots of interesting questions and i'm sure I could be moved from my position. I'm interested to hear what the people (and i am one of them) who believe that we have no right to force someone to live in agony in the case of a terminal illness feel about this, does the fact that the woman in question believes her illness is terminal count for anything? Do we have the right to end a life that isn't due to end naturally any time soon and not necessarily destined for perpetual agony?
Thoughts?
“The larger the group, the more toxic, the more of your beauty as an individual you have to surrender for the sake of group thought. And when you suspend your individual beauty you also give up a lot of your humanity. You will do things in the name of a group that you would never do on your own. Injuring, hurting, killing, drinking are all part of it, because you've lost your identity, because you now owe your allegiance to this thing that's bigger than you are and that controls you.” - George Carlin
Interesting. My short answer is that there is not enough information for me to make an informed decision one way or the other.
Has she been continuously confined since 21yrs old? Had any previous confinements and released? Has she had documented suicide attempts previously (not just thoughts or gestures)? In only 3 years what is/are/were the treatments of "done everything and that was unsuccessful"? Seems a short time to have tried everything and given it a chance to work. What is the doctor’s determination based on? What exactly is the law that allows this to proceed? Her statement "Death feels to me not as a choice. If I had a choice, I would choose a bearable life” seems a bit off to me and I question her decision making ability.
I feel that euthanasia has its place and it should be a personal choice that is allowed as long as the person is mentally stable (among other issues like terminal, no quality of life………). Can you be depressed and mentally stable at the same time? Probably the question that needs to be debated. Maybe Belgium has had that debateand come to a societal determination, maybe not. I know that I will check out when the time is right. Not going to go through a lingering death like my parents and grandparents.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
No. I suffered with severe depression throughout my late teens and didn't get better until 2006. The reason I don't think we need to start offing depressed people is simple, depression is a disease of the mind that will do anything to justify itself. I remember when it was bad the slightest setback in my life could set it off. It would always be something small, something anyone with a healthy mind could deal with.
If I'd been offered this I would have taken it and then I would never have known that I'd recover. I haven't felt seriously depressed since 2006 but I'm well aware that people who've had depression are more likely to get it in the future.
We don't need to help depressed people die, we need to help them survive until they recover.
Thank you for posting this thread Saxmoof.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. ~ George Bernard Shaw
I think anyone ought to have the right to commit suicide whenever they want. For the reasoning, I will save myself some trouble and point to some writings on this:
Here's the full interview from a Belgian newspaper, most of it still makes sense after being mangled by Google Translate, the translation of the last question made me laugh
I met the West Flemish Laura at the presentation of the book 'Libera me' euthanasia for psychological reasons. Writer Lieve Thienpont is one of the psychiatrists who gave Laura a positive opinion for euthanasia. As Laura tells about it, I see a calm, deliberate, confident young woman. That they, meanwhile, is busy planning her death seems unreal. I ask if she wants to tell me her story, and a few weeks later she invited me into her studio. It's a cozy little living space, with sweet notes on the refrigerator and a wall full of books and movies. She stays there a few days a week, under the supervision of the psychiatric institution where she has the rest of the week. Laura welcomed me warmly and while she makes coffee we talk about photography, one of her hobbies.
But it soon becomes clear that the atmosphere is no more than a mask. The severity of Laura's life never let her go. "I am now very quiet conversation, but probably I roll here in a few hours again on the basis of the pain that I have done to myself," she says. "My inner struggle never stops."
When you feel the first time you did not want this life?
"That thought was very conscious in kindergarten Then I sat there, I saw playing children, and then I thought. What do I here? Whether I was using my grandfather to school and thought 'I do not go here, I have no desire to live.' " "When I was six, I was once in a room of friends where guns were . I remember that I got a hold and the walk to have directed myself. "It allows me to make an end", I thought. "So it may be easy." I thought then that the guns were not loaded, later I learned that it was. If I had known at that time, I might have pulled the trigger. I can easily imagine. "
How was your childhood?
"The pregnancy was unplanned. My father was aggressive, drank too much. My mother is still a year stayed with him, but the situation was so dangerous that we had to move. " "Since when were my grandparents parent figures for me. With them I security, peace and structure. I have long part with them, partly lived with my mother. Early in the morning I went over to my grandparents to have breakfast with them, and I only came back to my mother after dinner. "
"I never knew how I would find her she was often ill at that time, the house was dirty, and she drank a lot of it is not that I was treated badly:.. Material I got compensated and I'm never physically abused but. always tension about how the situation might be, it was exhausting. " "My mother was trying to protect me from her problems by with me not talking about it, but that made the distance between us even more. I just need to which calls for openness. " "And yet, even though my childhood certainly contributed to my suffering, I am convinced that I had had this death wish when I'm in a quiet, stable family had grown up. I just never want to live. It is not for me. I am now is because I never want to burden others with my problems. "
Noticed teachers and classmates that it was not right?
"In high school I started automutileren. That was at any given time or on, but the school did not in the severity of the situation. They know my poor performance to a lack of intelligence, and they advised me to go one level lower. That year I first went to my doctor. "I can not," I said. " "I changed my study, and started looking for a foster home - without my mother knew. When it came out, she said: "That desire is never granted, so bad you have it here not totally?" They shall not threatening, she thought so sincere about it. " "When I moved in with my classmate Iris, that was quite a shock for her. Meanwhile began for me a little calmer period: my new course, theater and art was an outlet. I was in good company. But the funny thing is precisely because of more stable situation, just because I was not constantly survive, my depression got worse. As if there was room for then again in my head. It was so bad that I Iris into the depths pulled in, to the point that we both automutileerden. " "That was not a solution. I went back to live with my mother, and everything was the same. Including the "I want dood' feeling. It never went away. "
You are now three years into treatment in a psychiatric institution. When you decided that it was best?
"After my secondary school, I follow a theater course Meanwhile, I lived with my then girlfriend I had it all:.. a nice apartment, a great love, and I was fulltime theater . " "Nevertheless, I deeply, deeply unhappy Theater was my passion, but such training is also very confronting:. You must always hold up a mirror to yourself I could not.." "In my relationship I tried my heavy side to keep to myself, but my friend saw my depression anyway. I am going to make huge fight with her. A wrong reaction, of course, but I could not express myself. It was terribly difficult for her, the most beautiful thing that ever happened to me to let go. " "It was a psychologist by training I finally went to a recording she said." You do not do it, did not you have the guts to let you record, huh? ' Theater was my last dream in order to give up, I needed someone who spoke to me in such a tone. ".
How was that period in the institution?
"The image that dominates psychiatric institutions is: to lead people a life of luxury. A little talk, a little tinkering, some do not. If a vacation, almost. But it requires an incredible amount of courage to step in. That confrontation with yourself out there, that's very hard. " "I've turned many steps in my treatment, but at the same time my self-destructive behaviors, peaked. Myself cutting, with my head against the wall banging, things like that. In those moments, everything is so black, I'm not myself. " "It is extremely difficult to explain, but you can compare it with a monster that is in your body, and will break out. So I really feel it. A monster behind my ribs. The thing is such a huge source of aggression, anger and pain, nothing can stop it. Myself hurt reliever, for now. But he goes away-never. In fact, the sample is only growing. There is also the setting change anything. "
"At one time, my crisis so severe that it was even too much for the staff. Sometimes I was not allowed in the institute a few weeks so they just had a breather. I still find that incomprehensible, and I take that psychiatry very ill. I myself then but had to save, caused a significant breach of trust. " "On the other hand it was the rescue not of course nothing that I understand. A number of attendants stood very close to me, and they are always continue to fight with me. Them I am very grateful. "
When began playing the idea of euthanasia?
"During the first year of my recordings, I became friends with Sarah, who was busy with the euthanasia procedure. For hours we sit together in the courtyard smoking, talking about our lives, and her death. There was such great openness between us, that was wonderful. " "It was a huge relief because euthanasia is even in settings difficult to discuss. The whole treatment is focused on life , so the death does not fit in there. Or coaches think it is too heavy for us to talk about it. While true that recognize a person's suffering is so important. If you do not, you block the person you before you get off. " "Moreover, euthanasia is not just about death. Eventually, of course, but until the actual moment of death, this process is still continuing. From the beginning of a euthanasia request it takes a about year and a half, until death is actually there. In that period it is very strong for strength, and dignity. " "Sarah is deceased two years ago. You see that piece in the closet there? It symbolizes her. The black queen. We often played chess together, even just before her death. The last time I lost, when Sarah jokingly said "Too bad not it, that this loss now never can catch up." It was, in a strange way, beautiful to see her. You saw that she had finally rest now that they might go. She beamed. Then I thought. What is this really beautiful "
Are you right then start your own process?
"No, that has certainly lasted a year. I thought euthanasia a nice idea, but now even ran my own therapy and I was busy with that. I could put more and more things. The moment I realized my childhood is not the source of my pain was very important to me. Because if there was no external cause, was the source of my sufferings so in me. " "Then I too very fine, open conversations can carry with my mother. Finally said what used to be always kept quiet. I think it's very clever of her that she has so opened. It is also its all been very heavy. I have forgiven her everything from before, and our band is better than ever. It gives peace. "
"I was at one point also curious about my father. Shortly after I learned that he had just deceased. I insisted that I could still see him, and I bring him a last salute to go. They wanted the canvas there really is not pick up his body because his condition was not particularly good, but I'm glad I got through put anyway. Now I can join 'him off. "
A precondition to commit euthanasia, is that you are refractory, that all possible is attempted. When can you be sure that there really is no more options, especially if you're as young as you?
"I feel like I always have to answer for my age. But if someone says, 'You're only 24,' then I think: this is nothing, my life's been 24 years a struggle every day, some days I drag me literally from second to second this sense, 24 actually already very old. ".... "But, yes, it is indeed very difficult to to decide that it really is ready. I'm a fighter, I want to always completely sure. But it's just in. The last time I saw also in my counselors, who are increasingly sat quietly for me. They had nothing more to say. I feel so helpless, and I'm so tired of all the fighting, all treatments that do not catch on and the monster behind my ribs still grows. " "Death feels to me not as a choice . If I had a choice, I would choose a bearable life, but I have done everything and that was unsuccessful. I play all my life with the thought of suicide, I have also done a few attempts. But then there is someone who needs to find me so, and I want to hurt anyone. That has always stopped me. ' "Euthanasia remains a fierce determination, and every day I ask myself," I really want this? " But every day the answer is still yes. Through euthanasia my inevitable death at least a worthy death. "
Was it difficult to get the three doctors whose approval you needed to convince?
"You have to justify your suffering, several times to different doctors. That can be difficult, but happily talking about euthanasia me easily. Certainly the discussions with Virgin Thienpont were fine. With her, I had the feeling that I was recognized for the first time in my entirety, both in my forces in my suffering. " "The biggest struggle was finally wait. There's a lot of time between appointments, it's a long process. I understand that sometimes, it's not a decision you take lightly. The further in the process, the more exciting: when will there be an advice? And what advice? The last doctor withdrew at the last moment because he felt that he was not well enough informed about my case to judge. That was a setback, while creating new uncertainty entailed. Meanwhile, given another doctor still the third positive recommendation. "
How did your loved ones on your intention?
"shocked at first, but then there was actually anyone can understand. My friends and family know my history and they understand that this is the best for me. I have always been open about my shots, and it went downhill. And they also saw it to me. One friend even said 'Are you sure you're going to do it until the summer? Is it not too late? " Not because he wants me dead, of course, but because he is afraid of myself for that time in a crisis already doing something about it. " "I'm still very self-destructive, the risk that it is still wrong for the summer, is large . I hate my grandparents that they should lose their grandchild, and the worst for my mother. But I am confident that they will get through this store. They know that I am happiest when I am saved from my suffering. "
You euthanasia is therefore planned for this summer. What are you going to do until then?
"I have no great desire itself, no traveling or so. I especially want to do the things my loved ones still want to do with me. " "Since euthanasia became negotiable, and especially now that I know I can go this summer, there is a huge burden on me dropped. I have always lived with a hidden agenda, I always had to be careful that I do not for bijpraatte my mouth. I feel so relieved. I'm almost out of my suffering, but I also know that the mourning for my relatives then begins. So I want to still do everything to be there for them. I would be selfish if I would not take the time. " "And I'm still in the fight to the institution, to try to get more openness to euthanasia. I am convinced that people like me much better can be helped if people would dare talk about euthanasia. "
Have a picture at the time of euthanasia?
"Yes, I am already planning everything. My own death and burial. I think it is, how crazy that sounds, even fun to think about. I'm going to make a booklet with lyrics written by myself and by friends. And the song "Comes and goes in waves' Greg Laswell I certainly want my funeral." "My death itself will take place here, in the studio, an infusion that brings me to sleep. The physician should then finalize the injections allow my death. What I'm going to say on that last moment, I do not know yet. Many I have extensively written in letters to my friends. I think everything has already been appointed. Maybe I plop finally figure it out: 'Those who are about to die salute you. "" For privacy reasons, the names in this piece fictitious.
“The larger the group, the more toxic, the more of your beauty as an individual you have to surrender for the sake of group thought. And when you suspend your individual beauty you also give up a lot of your humanity. You will do things in the name of a group that you would never do on your own. Injuring, hurting, killing, drinking are all part of it, because you've lost your identity, because you now owe your allegiance to this thing that's bigger than you are and that controls you.” - George Carlin
July 5, 2015 at 2:22 am (This post was last modified: July 5, 2015 at 2:26 am by robvalue.)
For me the question is are they refusing to help her die, or actually forcing her to live? In some situations it's not possible to do one without the other, and that's the issue for me.
Euthanasia is never cut and dry of course. But I hate the idea of forcing people to live against their will.
I understand that people who temporarily aren't in their "right mind" need to be protected from themselves. I'm totally down with that. But what needs to be considered, in my opinion, is whether they are in the most lucid state of mind you can reasonably expect them ever to be in.
So as others have said, I would need more details.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
First off, I am glad you are doing better Saxmoof and all the others that have had depression!
I agree, with most of you. For it to be doctor assisted the person should be lucid and able to differentiate between being hopeless or having an emanate terminal condition.
I hate to say it but self inflicted suicide is always available, why is she asking permission if she really wants to complete her actions?
