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Science And The Bible - Introduction
#1
Science And The Bible - Introduction
I have discussed religion, God and the Bible with atheists, Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, skeptics, agnostics, believers (past and present) and unbelievers (past and present) online for 13 or 14 years. It was apparent to me fairly early on that my real reason for doing this came from an interest in the subject and the possibility to learn how those who don’t believe as I do think as well as the rare opportunity to share what I believe with others who are interested. Very often this opportunity is obscured by heated debates and the sort of overly emotional defense of ones beliefs. This isn’t a criticism of anyone else more so than myself. We all sometimes feel passionately about what we believe in.

Even in the midst of these often charged discussions I have learned from errors and made adjustments accordingly in what I believe. I started out on the Watchtower Observer as a defender of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and learned that they were really another religion with religious errors that cost many people their lives. I learned to have a more balanced view of the Bible’s position on blood. I learned that Jesus was a god as the Bible said, but not a god to Jehovah. I also learned a great deal more about what I believe. In teaching I learn and in learning I teach.

When having these sorts of discussions with atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and unbelievers in general, science seems to be the most important issue. I personally don’t get that. I know and can understand how science is an important aspect of these peoples lives but I don’t see it as particularly relevant to the discussion of God and the Bible.

To me the advancements of science can’t be denied, though I also find that many people give credit to science where that credit isn’t due and overlook the possible negative aspects of science. Its potential to be abused just as the word of God and the “name of God” has been abused.

There are, in my opinion, actually only a few points that have been brought to my attention where science and the Bible are at odds. I personally have resolved each of these points to my own satisfaction as well as the satisfaction of some, though not all of the skeptics I have had discussions with regarding those issues. These will be addressed later in this series of posts I have planned on the subject of Science And The Bible. The majority of where I see a conflict with science and the Bible, is of course, evolution. To begin this discussion I thought it would be important and helpful to clarify definitions to more clearly see where I am coming from.

It is important to note that I don’t have much of an interest in evolutionary science myself, and I recognize that many of the references I will use will be dated to the latest I have - dated to the early to mid 1980s. This is where I left off, and I invite anyone who follows this discussion to bring me up to date.



Evolution



Organic evolution is the theory that the first living organism developed from lifeless matter then reproduced while changing into different kinds of living things. This ultimately produced all living plant and animal life on earth. Without supernatural design or control by a Creator.

Creation is the belief that all living things, basic kinds of life were designed and created by Almighty God. These two conclusions don’t mix.

Isaac Newton was one of the greatest Scientists of all time and also one of the greatest theologians. Charles Darwin, in the conclusion to his Origin Of Species, wrote: “view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one,” so why is there such a division of science and Bible belief today? Is it possible that science is being misrepresented by evolutionist just as religion has misrepresented God in the past?

These are some of the questions I hope to discuss in my series of posts on Science And The Bible.

If any one has any comments or advice for me as I broach the subject now is the time for it.
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#2
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
Just note: evolution does not say anything about abiogenesis, they are separate. I've said it before- evolution is simply the change of organisms over time. I'll post more later whoops I'm very late. Damn you Daystar and your interesting threads!
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#3
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
If you can't accept evolution then you haven't understood it.
[Image: cinjin_banner_border.jpg]
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#4
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
This thread looks like it's gonna turn out really interesting.

However,
(December 4, 2008 at 3:44 pm)Daystar Wrote:
Evolution



Organic evolution is the theory that the first living organism developed from lifeless matter then reproduced while changing into different kinds of living things.

Nobody will debate with you if you're using that as your definition of evolution. You'll need to call it "abiogenevolution" or something, because you're fusing two seperate theories.


And technically I should say that
Evolution = observed fact
Theory of evolution = our explanation of those facts.

But I can see that you're probably going to disagree with evolution being factual, so I look forward to your posts Smile
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#5
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
(December 4, 2008 at 3:54 pm)lukec Wrote: Just note: evolution does not say anything about abiogenesis, they are separate. I've said it before- evolution is simply the change of organisms over time. I'll post more later whoops I'm very late. Damn you Daystar and your interesting threads!

Surely you need to consider the two things together?
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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#6
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
(December 4, 2008 at 4:35 pm)CoxRox Wrote:
(December 4, 2008 at 3:54 pm)lukec Wrote: Just note: evolution does not say anything about abiogenesis, they are separate. I've said it before- evolution is simply the change of organisms over time. I'll post more later whoops I'm very late. Damn you Daystar and your interesting threads!

Surely you need to consider the two things together?

True, but that doesn't make them the same theory. We all know what Daystar means, but you have to make the distinction between the two phenomena. Evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life. It only deals with life which is already there.
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#7
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
They are both important but evolution, by definition, can only deal with existing organisms and their genetic material. Abiogenesis is a completely separate concept, and it's key to remember they are not the same thing. I freely admit I am not certain how life started, but once it did evolution (and especially important in the time before sexual reproduction, natural selection) would kick in immediately.
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#8
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
(December 4, 2008 at 3:54 pm)lukec Wrote: Just note: evolution does not say anything about abiogenesis, they are separate. I've said it before- evolution is simply the change of organisms over time. I'll post more later whoops I'm very late. Damn you Daystar and your interesting threads!

Okay, I will await your post informing me on abiogenesis and why there should be a separation. I want to hear your thoughts in your own words, I rarely read links so those should be reserved for in the case that you feel you and other contributers are not satisfied that your own words are sufficient.
(December 4, 2008 at 3:58 pm)Darwinian Wrote: If you can't accept evolution then you haven't understood it.

That means nothing to me. I could say the same thing to you about creation and it would mean nothing to you. Each of us could give good reason and debate it endlessly and still - for nothing.
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#9
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
God + evolution
God creates self-replicating molecule.
It evolves.
We have what we see today.
Abiogenesis + evolution
Life arises by itself.
It evolves.
We have what we see today.

The reason you ought to seperate them is that evolution and God are compatible without abiogenesis. But saying that, God and abiogenesis are also compatible if you believe God was responsible for the big bang and such, and let life come about by itself.

Really, you should just seperate them to be correct. The claim "evolution says life came from nonlife" is untrue. Just a case of avoiding that.
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#10
RE: Science And The Bible - Introduction
(December 4, 2008 at 4:45 pm)LukeMC Wrote:
(December 4, 2008 at 4:35 pm)CoxRox Wrote:
(December 4, 2008 at 3:54 pm)lukec Wrote: Just note: evolution does not say anything about abiogenesis, they are separate. I've said it before- evolution is simply the change of organisms over time. I'll post more later whoops I'm very late. Damn you Daystar and your interesting threads!

Surely you need to consider the two things together?

True, but that doesn't make them the same theory. We all know what Daystar means, but you have to make the distinction between the two phenomena. Evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life. It only deals with life which is already there.

Phenomena? Interesting choice of words.

I see the difference. This is why I posted an introduction before we get started. To get as much as this out of the way so that we know where we are each coming from.

With that in mind, knowing that we will have more time to discuss it in the future, I just would like to know if biogenesis is proven fact.

I say that God created life but I wasn't there and I can't demonstrate this. You say biogenesis is responsible. The details are not important at this time, but is biogenesis fact?
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