Argument from Conscience

[Whateverist]

There seems to be a line here that some people are taking that morals are set and immovable.
This position is demonstrably wrong.

I agree that morality is linked to communities.

Our society now is the most moral ever ..

Don't think that I would go that far. There may be less extreme physical suffering but there is enormous tolerance for gross inequities. There was more brutality in the past but I'm not sure we aren't just as far from hitting the moving moral target as we ever were.

[Redbeard The Pink]

There seems to be a line here that some people are taking that morals are set and immovable.
This position is demonstrably wrong.
You only have to read the bible to see that what was considered the moral thing to do is now considered immoral itself because societies have changed and adjusted.
Our society now is the most moral ever and that is precisely because we have moved away from religious thinking.
The most immoral societies are the most religiously fundamental, ISIS for example.

And what exactly were the fundamental views of the Third Reich, Stalin regime and the RedGuard rebellion?  I find your statement demonstrably fallacious

OH MY FUCKING SHIT THE THIRD REICH WAS OPENLY AND EXPRESSLY CHRISTIAN WHY CAN'T YOU THEISTS GET THIS THROUGH YOUR FUCKING SKULLLZZZ???!!!

Like damn, people. Seriously. The Nazi movement was not atheistic. Hitler was most likely not atheistic. If you google "What religion are Nazis?" Christianity and its definition are the first thing you see, followed by pages of links that affirm this with citation. The Nazis tore down a bunch of other churches to set up their own, and it was a CHRISTIAN CHURCH!!!

FUCK!!!

Ok...whoo, sorry. I've just been seeing this, like, every 10 seconds lately. The Nazi movement was knowingly, publicly, and demonstrably Christian. I'm sure you or someone else will be inclined to pull out the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, to which I will respond by politely telling whoever does that to shove that argument into his or her ass and twist it until it catches on something.

As for Communism, Communist dictators tend to repress religion on the basis that its power is a threat to the state. Suppressing opposing ideologies is also a common practice amongst Theocracies, however, so you can't really attribute that to atheist thought. That seems to be more a feature of power dynamics than anything.

Seriously, though, I must implore you and other theists to stop using the Nazis as an example of the impact of atheism. It makes you look uninformed and/or dishonest. Nazism is not atheistic. Still isn't, in fact. Look up the stats on Neo-Nazis and see if you can figure out how many of them are religious versus non. Go ahead. I'll wait.

[robvalue]

Showing off Hitler as "immoral" is not a good idea for Christians.

Hitler is a rank amateur compared to Yahweh in the genocide department, and Yahweh goes way further than that too into whole new areas of depravity.

Still had no actual answers to my "god says murder and rape are moral" question

[Whateverist]

People don't get their morals from the bible. They project their morals onto the bible and ignore any bits that don't match up.

Well that is arguably one way to get your morals: project them into the bible and then withdraw them as needed.  This way comes with the added benefit of having a common language/story structure, kind of like horoscopes?  

Others project their morals into general principles.  One draw back with this is the deliberations don't ever have to stop, and it is desirable for people (the animal) to switch it off sometimes.

[robvalue]

It's obvious people project onto the bible, because they speak of Jesus as if he was the perfect moral guide. He wasn't, he was quite often a piece of shit. But those parts don't match up to their idea of what he should be, in other words themselves, so they ignore them. So Jesus just becomes an idealized version of themself.

It's rather frustrating for me that people can't see this happening, but there you go! What can I do? I can't kill Jesus again.

[Whateverist]

How many times have you killed him so far?

[robvalue]

Erm, let's see... there was that time when...

Hmm...

Oh, yeah and... does that count? I suppose.

8. It seems the last one finally stuck.

[Whateverist]

Whateverist and Rob I agree with you on humans deliberating on moral acts, but as you correctly stated there is indeed something that provokes and that we "appeal" to.  I will not speak for Chad or anyone else, but yes I prescribe that to us being made in the image of God and our character reflecting God's character.  Others may not agree and that is perfectly fine, but the point is there is something in us all that we detect, but simply disagree on the source.

Personally, I don't mind that you utilize religion to articulate your morality. Does it matter to you that I don't?

[robvalue]

Nah, what matters to me most is the outcome. Kingpin is clearly a good person and has good morality, from what I can tell. That's the important thing.

The thing that worries me most about rationality behind morality being different from simply analyzing consequences is the danger of a sudden shift to the wrong direction... as my scenario points out. But people probably won't answer it because they know they still wouldn't say it's OK for me to kill their family, even if god says so, thus demonstrating that their morality is not simply dependent on god's opinion at all.

[Kingpin]

[quote pid='1016242' dateline='1438961326']

Whateverist and Rob I agree with you on humans deliberating on moral acts, but as you correctly stated there is indeed something that provokes and that we "appeal" to.  I will not speak for Chad or anyone else, but yes I prescribe that to us being made in the image of God and our character reflecting God's character.  Others may not agree and that is perfectly fine, but the point is there is something in us all that we detect, but simply disagree on the source.

Personally, I don't mind that you utilize religion to articulate your morality.  Does it matter to you that I don't?
[/quote]

Not at all.  I am in no position or authority to judge your decisions.