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Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
#21
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
(September 20, 2015 at 12:37 am)Rational AKD Wrote: new atheists like to say religion throughout the course of history has held us back... but it hasn't. at least not Christianity, which most atheists attack the most.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgESPmh-TxY

This video makes good points about religion now.  I regret not seeing anything about the violent past of religion historically which I find intellectually dishonest on the part of the the person who made that video.  I would be far most interested in speculating where the world would have been scientifically, morally and politically had religion been absent.  I really don't think the argument "but religion does good now" is relevant to the OP's question.  

Try again dude.

Honestly, I feel the Family Guy speculation is good speculation. Smile
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#22
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
(September 19, 2015 at 5:26 pm)houseofcantor Wrote:
(September 19, 2015 at 4:35 pm)strawberryBacteria Wrote: "If religions hadn't come to existence, our world would be in a much better state right now." pretty much equals to a theist arguing about the existence of their god without a scientifically proven empirical evidence to support it, right?

Yeah. 

I don't think we're going to be at any point in civilization without some form of religion.

Disagree. Granted, religion played an integral role in leading us alone the particular path of civilization we took. But that's a little like deceit also played an integral role in leading us along the path of civilization we took. Yes, without religion, we would never arrive at the current point along the current path, much like if we were incapable of deceit we would also never be at the current point along the current path.

But that doesn't mean our current point is the only point that qualify as civilization, nor our path the only possible path to civilization.
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#23
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
Would we be better or worse off without a church that routinely fucks little boys up the ass and protects the perverts who do it?

I gotta think we'd be better off.
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#24
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
It's a good question, but it's hypothetical so I think the answer could go either way depending on other hypothetical factors.
It could be some sort of fantasy world where people are distracted from tribal and religious war by some sort of simultaneous global communication in which everyone agrees there is no god and the best way to move onwards is via scientific achievement and co operation.
But the real world isn't like that, I think in the ancient world if you didn't have religion to mobilize the troops, form alliances an get funds you would be at a relative disadvantage.
It sort of have a lot of similarities to a government.  It's ok to not have a government if everyone agrees to work together, not initiate violence with one another and work their fair share without any threat of force from a higher power.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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#25
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
No. We also wouldn't be here if that little butterfly hadn't flapped its wings that one last time before it died. We also wouldn't be here if some stone-age man hadn't slipped on a mossy rock and busted his head open, instead of living one more day and mating with that hot Neanderthal girl in the next cave over.

So no, it wouldn't have been as it is. But I don't think that's a good argument for religion, if that's what you're getting it.
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#26
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
(September 19, 2015 at 6:38 pm)houseofcantor Wrote:
(September 19, 2015 at 6:16 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Time travel, take out the major players as the come up. Come back and see.

"Time travel" is ridiculous.

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(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay

0/10

Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
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#27
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
(September 19, 2015 at 4:35 pm)strawberryBacteria Wrote: I mean, back then people and nations did unite in the name of some religion, which created a bogged down and dumbed down, yet stable pools for us to meddle with science, philosophy, etc, which of course led us to our current point of civilization.

As much as I hate all the persecutions, suffering, and general nonsense that religions have brought. upon people, and truly believe that pure humanism is the way to go, how can we know for sure that without the existence of the current major religions and its contribution in bringing stability in the past, we would be living in a much better, utopian world? Since our current world is the only empirical evidence we can refer to, saying that "If religions hadn't come to existence, our world would be in a much better state right now." pretty much equals to a theist arguing about the existence of their god without a scientifically proven empirical evidence to support it, right?

Thus, can we say that a "successful" religion might have been a utilitarian, humanist genius' grand tool and creation that was made to bring a much-needed stability in the volatile world of the past? One which the creator knew would bring a lot of mishaps, but will eventually bring goods that outweighs the bads?

Maybe they knew that when people are ready and informed enough, they'll eventually let go of the superstitious nonsenses and ditch the insensible bits of religious teachings anyway.

I actually wrote a short blog post about this earlier, what do you guys think?

I don't think it's particularly helpful to wonder about what could have been better since we can't change the past. Rather, we should think about the future. And on that point, I think we should build a fully secular society where religion is as inconsequential as an eleven-year-old's fantasy that he'll get invited to Hogwarts, even though he didn't show any magical capabilities so far.
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#28
Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
We can't really know what the world would be like now without the advent of our current mainstream religions. I think we would have to be a fatalist to think that our current situation is only the way it is because certain events happened that paved the way for our mainstream religions. Even if the abrahamic religions didn't exist they could have still been some other religion that took over. Assessing our technology now and how smart we think we are now is all relative. But, without religions we at least wouldn't be persecuted for not believing in a god or worshiping a god a certain was etc. maybe there would be another demon like people really into their countries and killing people all the time based on geographic origin. We can't know how the world would have, should have, could have been. All that matters now is we don't let religion cause further harm to people's brains.
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#29
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
I didn't watch the video (messed up computer). But I don't feel we would be that farther along without religion. The advancements which have led to the most benefit to mankind have been in agriculture and medicine. These in turn were made possible from advancements in thinking by people such as Thomas Hobbes and Francis Bacon. The technological revolution was preceded by a revolution in thinking. I don't think that religion played much of a role in the timing of this development. It came in the timing that it would have without religion. Cultural revolutions just take time, with one thinker preceding another thinker and so forth through time.
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#30
RE: Would we currently be at this point of civilization without religions?
You know I once remember reading "Arthur C. Clarke's Mysterious World" and in the chapter on the Antikythera mechanism he wrote with such sniveling words something "If only there wasn't that science hating Christianity in medieval times we wouldn't be wasting our time on the Moon now but visiting nearby stars."
Perhaps he was right considering religion really flourished during pagan era but then diseases came and people embraced darker religions.
And I guess role of religion is for peaceful uniting of tribes, because as people grow their tribes get bigger and tribes start killing other tribes and then the one that win are those that spare people if they accept their gods, meaning them as gods. Like Alexander the Great and that kept for a long time. Remember Napoleon once said “I do not see in religion the mystery of the incarnation so much as the mystery of the social order. It introduces into the thought of heaven an idea of equalization, which saves the rich from being massacred by the poor.”
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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