What is a god?

[LukeMC]

Ascribing purpose to plants and things is a typical human thing. Even as a nonbeliever you seem eager to do so. This is not obvious at all. The human brain seems to be wired for this. The purpose you ascribe to plants shows the use of an actor-object model of the world in which everything in the world is perceived in terms of usefullness to the actor, a rather utilitarian view on the world. From an evolutionary standpoint this model has proven usefull (to survive and adapt to new situations) to us. But its characteristic assesment of all objects in the world as contributing parts to some higher purpose is the result of the combination of a pattern seeking ability inate to man and the misconception that the whole of being can be personified as some agent with needs of his/her own. This is why an answer on the purpose of being is often not satisfactory to the questioner. Somewhere in the background the cosmic agent, notwithstanding its artificial state, lingers in the mind.

Imo the actor-object model is a false model when applied to the whole of being. I think we are very lucky to be able to define our own purpose in life.

I'm in agreement with you here. Bare in mind I'm only testing her claims of purpose with the presupposition of her "god model" being real. Personally I believe my life holds no purpose unless I impose it myself.

Unless I misunderstood what you were trying to say. It seemed that you were telling me why attributing purposes to things is a dumb idea (albeit natural)? If so, I agree on all points.

[CoxRox]

LukeMC you said: 'Then we give ourselves purpose. The magic matter plays no role in this? Agree?'

I would say both. The purposes we find for life naturally arise from life, or living our lives. This being would know that lives need purposes, just as physical bodies need food. One follows the other.

You said: ''I will agree with the reproducing, but beyond that, everything else is purpose which we impose. They just make the experience much nicer for us, but theyre aren't necessary. Plants don't have social lives (as far as I'm aware), their only purpose in life is to reproduce successfully. We are the same, except we give ourselves extra "purposes" to keep us going.''

I think there is more to it than that. There are many things which are necessary for us to do to continue throughout life, other than reproduction, and these other things maybe become purposes. 'Purpose' is a bit abstract and yes, we create our own purposes, no doubt about that.

You said: ''We could impose that on ourselves, yes. And I really quite like this. However, this has little to do with the magic matter.''

I'm assuming this being does exist, so the conclusion therefore is that it must in some way be connected to the reason for our being alive. I have tried to find a 'place' for this being to be part of 'life', the universe. At the end of the day, it may not exist and probably doesn't.

''Terrorist blows up building. People die. The good people cannot learn because they are dead. The rest of us can learn. Those killed were basically a sacrifice for our benefit? What happens to those poor innocent people? They didn't choose to die painfully.''-

No they didn't. If there is no being, then tuff luck. That's the brutality of this life. It's like evolution- survival of the fittest, dog eat dog. If evolution is responsible for us humans being here, and ready to blow other humans up, then bad things happen and that's life. If there is this being then maybe their death isn't the end of the matter. It's very unlikely and it's like the most amazing fairy story you'll ever read. I really do see this. I struggle with 'Christianity' and really shouldn't call myself a Christian of any kind. I have too many doubts.

''First you say that there is no afterlife. Next you talk about Jesus working his magic after we die. What is the point in this? We won't come back, we'll not materialise in any way, we won't continue to exist in any state or form (according to what you've said). So Jesus' cleansing is a waste of time?
Lets imagine I don't know Jesus. Who is he? Why is he so special and who gave him these magical powers?''

This is the most outrageous part of Christianity's claims: that we can live again. It's mind blowing if it could possibly be true. I've read up on different religions and the only one that 'speaks to my heart' if you like is the Bible and Jesus. You would need to read it to see if you could see what I mean. I would recommend you start at Matthew. You know when you meet someone and fall in love with them? Maybe you haven't fallen in love yet, but it's a bit like that. I am also aware that I have been brought up on the Bible from an early age so that probably has a good deal to do with it.

''You get shot and are now dead. You cannot learn, you cannot grow. You are now nothing more than a human sacrifice for the sake of other humans? Why you? You didn't choose this path. An innocent life taken in an instant. I'm struggling with this.''

If there is no being and this is all there is, then we struggle with this indeed. What a waste. But if this is not the end of the 'story' then I wouldn't have died in vain. I will 'wake up' and be with my family and possibly this being. Yes, it's fantastical, a fairy story.

''It seems to me that by asserting that this magical creator cares about you, you are appealing to your own emotions, not to reason. From everything we've discussed so far, this matter has no sense of benevolence. And I don't think you any longer have a reason to believe otherwise.''

It could all be 'emotion' at the end of the day. I suppose because I see 'design' in the universe, I then conclude that this designer does care, the way we care about things. You are right though, it does seem that it does not care either enough or at all if evil is allowed to have a free hand.

''

The potential for evil exists and must be a necessary part of the equation.

This looks to me a lot like:
Evil exists. Why?
It exists therefore it must be necessary for it to exist. The creator must have a reson for it.

Instead of:
Evil exists. Why?
Because there is no morally superior being to say otherwise. Evil is down to us. We cannot throw the blame elsewhere.''

The universe and everything in it is 'evolving', growing. This has to run its course. I can't stop the universe expanding and I can't slow the earth down. The environment we live in, the minds that we have or that have evolved up to this point, all play a part in producing 'evil'.

''I dislike how theists believe that evil is a necessary part of life. Evil is only necessary if the supernatural being responsible for everything is not benevolent. If it were really good, it wouldn't torture its creations until they die and then forget about them. You say that evil is necessary for us to learn. Why should it be? Why did it take a Holocaust for us to unite against cruelty? Why weren't we already against cruelty before it came about? Pointless, sadistic, meaningless sacrifice. If good people have to die for us to learn, I question the god-figure's benevolence to the fullest. You need to drop the benevolence claim.''

When I said 'necessasy' I think I should have used the word 'inevitable'. Remember evil does not exist as an entity of somekind. It is a by-product of actions. Humans choose to do things that cause 'evil'. How can you take away the possibility of choosing actions? You would be like a programmed robot that can only do specified things. The history of mankind seems to be showing that we will never learn and we will always choose 'paths' that not only cause ourselves suffering, but others. Maybe this is the appeal of 'religions'. Christianity for example, claims that this cycle will be broken once and for all.

[lukec]

I feel that to be invited to live a certain way by a personal God is a way to relieve oneself of responsibility. When we can refer upwards the burden of "policing" the race, we are absolved, I feel, of a duty to do something ourselves. If we are to live this way, based on the idea that if we don't we shall be punished in some way, then where is our morality? There cannot be any, as such. We cannot be expected to live moral lives, because the choice is not truly ours to make- the repercussions, with a personal god, are of all the importance, and the choice itself means nothing.

You also talk about our world, and how chance it seems that we are able to live on this planet. You say that if gravity was a bit stronger we would not be here. Well, perhaps we would not, but who are you to say that another planet would be able to foster life? And further, perhaps we need only realize that the only way for us to even speculate how we came to be was for us to be solves a bit of the mystery itself- there are around 100 billion stars in the milky way galaxy alone, and there are 100 billion other galaxies (or ten billion trillion stars!). With all these possible places to live, it does not really shock me that life originated somewhere. The point being, of course, that if we were born in the Andromeda galaxy I'm sure we would be saying, "Wow, what amazing conditions we have here!" It's all perspective.

I'm surprised, too that you seem so down on life. I mean, yeah, it's rough, but can you imagine life without the bad? What would be the point? I'm not saying I like it, mind you, but I just can't fathom enjoying anything without a counterpoint. Unlik you, however, I don't think that without god, without christianity, there is no good in life. In breaking away from a reliance on a perfect life after death, the importance of living your life now, not wasting it in waiting for what comes next, becomes clear. Life is indeed, too short to waste. And you're right, a natural disaster could strike at any moment. I could get murdered for no reason. My family could all fall sick and die. But that's what makes enjoying what we've got worthwhile. That's what makes friends, family, love, laughter, and joy all the more poignant. It is not because I'm striving towards a deity that these things are meaningful to me, but rather because they are what makes life worth living. So perhaps I should not have used the word "evil" when really I just meant the bad things that happen to people. Evil carries a connotation of intentional malice, so yes, I mispoke.

[CoxRox]

Lukec, Oh dear, I seem to have given you the wrong impression on several points you mention. We are all 'under rules' right now-the law of the land whether we like it or not and we all have responsibilty, so I'm not asking to be absolved in some way. I'm not sure how you got that impression??

Yes, maybe life does exist elsewhere and gravity is different there.

I am most definately not 'down on life'. I was replying to LukeMC's points. Yes bad things happen to us all. I know that life is one big up and down. I love life so much I want it to last. I can imagine life without bad. Maybe that's why I can be 'persuaded' by this 'fairy story'. I don't lead my life in any kind of religious way. I live it just like you, trying to do my best, enjoying life to the full etc.

[lukec]

Hahaha, ok sorry, I read to much fatalism into "We can try to make a better world in the mean time, but unfair stuff (murders, sickness, natural disasters) befall many people so they lose out on the better world anyway. It's still all shit."

And, just to clarify, I didn't mean gravity was different anywhere (it's called the gravitational constant for a reason) I just meant that yes, conditions are perfect for us, but who's to say that a different set of conditions could not work for life as well? My point about life elsewhere was simply to illustrate that we may not be as alone in the vast vast universe, that we cannot comprehend, as a human-centered religion would have us believe.

[CoxRox]

Ok. I meant all the bad stuff was shit. I'm feeling very uncomfortable talking about this so called God and what 'he' may or may not be like. It's a bit futile really. I don't know anything really and it's a bit silly surmising and hypothesising. He probably doesn't even exist. The more I debate on here, the more doubts I have.

[lukec]

So why exactly do you think this doubt makes you uncomfortable? Does it just have to do with questioning long-held beliefs?

[CoxRox]

Yes, and because it's not good to be talking rubbish. Imagine you find out after 40 years that your dad isn't your dad. You would feel upset. It's something akin to that.

[lukec]

Yes, I can see how that would be upsetting. For me, it wasn't an issue so much, since when I was younger I feared god, and feared hell, and feared doing something wrong that would make me bad in the eyes of god. So when, one day, it just clicked for me, I felt liberated.

[CoxRox]

I haven't believed in the hell, torture thing since I was a teenager so my beliefs are/were based on the more positive aspects of God: love, forgiveness, eternal life- all good things. To think this life is all we have and there is no God makes me feel very bleak and depressed.