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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 13, 2010 at 9:29 pm
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2010 at 9:38 pm by fr0d0.)
(May 12, 2010 at 1:33 pm)Saerules Wrote: Even among christians... many of them believe that some god has a plan for them. Whilst many would claim that they believe in free will... both cannot be true. ^_^ Orly? 
Theirs would be an inaccurate statement then, because we know that believing in pre-determinism and being, at the same time, free agents : is what they really mean 
(May 12, 2010 at 4:58 pm)Caecilian Wrote: Personally, I'm a compatibilist re. free will/ determinism. This is the third philosophical option, libertarian free will and determinism being the other two. As the name suggests, compatibilists argue that there is no contradiction between free will and determinism.
According to compatibilism, 'free will' is not about causation at all. Its about responsibility for and ownership of actions. If I say that I did X of my own free will, then what I'm saying is that my actions were due to me (my history, beliefs, desires etc), and were authentically mine. If I do X because someone is pointing a gun at my head, then I'm doing it because of external coercion, and not because of reasons that are mine- thus not of my own free will. By contrast, if I do X because I had a bad childhood (part of my personal history), then I am doing it of my own free will. If you did X because of the influence of your personal history, then your will (personal choice) was not free but determined. You don't have free will but are a free agent to do as your influence dictates, given the ability to act upon it.
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 14, 2010 at 4:13 am
fr0d0 Wrote:Orly?
Theirs would be an inaccurate statement then, because we know that believing in pre-determinism and being, at the same time, free agents : is what they really mean
Indeed... but what they mean is neither here nor there: it's all a bunch of monkeys dancing around a campfire preparing for nuclear was with the Cheese Puffs. And Cheese Puffs are disgusting... for they are cheese... and puffs!
...
Wait... what thread am I in again? 
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 14, 2010 at 11:54 am
(This post was last modified: May 14, 2010 at 11:55 am by John_S3V.)
I've figured out what the first cause was! There was nothingness. Absolute non-existence. But non-existence couldn't sustain itself, because non-existence can't really exist, because it's nothing and a dozen inscrutable non-existent galactic reactions later, BAM! The universe was created.
Hmm, yes, I quite like that summary. Well, any moment now I will become the most famous man in the world for figuring out the universe. Somebody want to mail me some champaigne to celebrate with?
Come my brethren and feast upon one another! (S)He who triumps and has eaten us all will be blessed with the knowledge of all those with whom (s)he has consumed!
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 14, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Sae, you response was nonsensical, so I'll just leave this here: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=...1879#comic
(Make sure you put your mouse over the red button)
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 14, 2010 at 3:04 pm
(May 14, 2010 at 12:02 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: Sae, you response was nonsensical, so I'll just leave this here: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=...1879#comic
(Make sure you put your mouse over the red button)
Red button?  I have lost my train of thought...
*Saerules wanders aimlessly for some unknown length of time, and encounters a railroad*
Oh hey, a train, and it's heading this way
*Saerules spies a sledgehammer on the ground, conveniently close to the tracks, trots over, and lifts it*
This should do nicely! 
*Saerules swings the sledgehammer in a grand arc, squarely hitting the front end of the engine compartment*
*Saerules watches as the caboose flips into the air, and flies past the engine, crushing all the occupants in the train... which then bursts into righteous fire, purging those who insist upon sanity in her judgement*
...
What were we talking about?
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 16, 2010 at 6:38 pm
(May 13, 2010 at 9:29 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: (May 12, 2010 at 4:58 pm)Caecilian Wrote: Personally, I'm a compatibilist re. free will/ determinism. This is the third philosophical option, libertarian free will and determinism being the other two. As the name suggests, compatibilists argue that there is no contradiction between free will and determinism.
According to compatibilism, 'free will' is not about causation at all. Its about responsibility for and ownership of actions. If I say that I did X of my own free will, then what I'm saying is that my actions were due to me (my history, beliefs, desires etc), and were authentically mine. If I do X because someone is pointing a gun at my head, then I'm doing it because of external coercion, and not because of reasons that are mine- thus not of my own free will. By contrast, if I do X because I had a bad childhood (part of my personal history), then I am doing it of my own free will. If you did X because of the influence of your personal history, then your will (personal choice) was not free but determined. You don't have free will but are a free agent to do as your influence dictates, given the ability to act upon it.
According to compatibilism, theres nothing contradictory between your actions being determined and your having free will. Your actions could be completely 100% determined by your personal history, and that wouldn't matter one iota whether your choices were freely chosen.
Free will simply isn't about what causes you to do things. Its about whether the decision that you made was yours or not.
He who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
Mikhail Bakunin
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything
Friedrich Nietzsche
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 17, 2010 at 9:16 am
Free will may or may not exist with or without determinism. If the universe is indeterministic then how does that give you any more freedom than if it's determined? Randomness isn't free control ("free will") at all. With or without determinism I personally see no reason to believe in free will, but that's because I'm an incompatiblist, I use the definition of free will that's incompatible with determinism and such a definition I find too ridiculous to believe in.
There is also a compatabilist definition. This is a definition of free will that is compatible with determinism - so yes, the thread title is a false dictotomy too if you count the compatiabilists into the argument. I personally don't bother with a compatabilist definition of "free will" because such a definition is so loose and weak I find it both meaningless and misleading. I'd rather just say I don't believe in free will.
EvF
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 17, 2010 at 9:26 am
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2010 at 9:27 am by John_S3V.)
(May 17, 2010 at 9:16 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Free will may or may not exist with or without determinism. If the universe is indeterministic then how does that give you any more freedom than if it's determined? Randomness isn't free control ("free will") at all. With or without determinism I personally see no reason to believe in free will, but that's because I'm an incompatiblist, I use the definition of free will that's incompatible with determinism and such a definition I find too ridiculous to believe in.
There is also a compatabilist definition. This is a definition of free will that is compatible with determinism - so yes, the thread title is a false dictotomy too if you count the compatiabilists into the argument. I personally don't bother with a compatabilist definition of "free will" because such a definition is so loose and weak I find it both meaningless and misleading. I'd rather just say I don't believe in free will.
EvF
I like how you phrased the one sentence. "Randomness isn't free control ("free will") at all."
That seems to be what he was getting at is control vs lack of control. Sure, free will is free in the sense that some divine being isn't stopping you from carrying out your well, but one's will is controlled by the fact that their will is ultimately decided by predetermining or arbitrary factors. In either case, it's controlled.
Even if we gained control over our will, (through planet of the ape labotomies), how we utilized our control over our will would ultimately be determined by other causes such as the people and enviornmental factors around us. Without omnipotence ultimate control cannot be obtained.
Come my brethren and feast upon one another! (S)He who triumps and has eaten us all will be blessed with the knowledge of all those with whom (s)he has consumed!
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 18, 2010 at 5:19 am
(This post was last modified: May 18, 2010 at 5:20 am by KichigaiNeko.)
I think that the best definition was given to me by 'The Badger'
This is just an illusion ...smoke and mirrors after all is said and done....if I want something I can manifest it...."I think that an LTD, old lady owner, maybe red, is something I would like" and lo...it was there @ the price he wanted to pay.
This is just a game kiddies...learn the game and you learn which rules to break, which to bend and which are sacrosanct. Don't need some megalomaniacal sky daddy to intervene for you. You can do it all yourself. 
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Determinism vs Free Will
May 18, 2010 at 11:40 am
(May 13, 2010 at 8:00 am)Saerules Wrote: If determinism is correct (and I see no reason why it would not be)... it would mean that given sufficiently advanced mathematics/technology: every event that will ever be, is, and has ever been (within this universe, though some events may in fact modify what is prior/after so considerably it become impossible to now what came before)... becomes calculable and knowable. I think that is somewhat interesting, at the least  That is very fractal-math if I've ever seen any. With the 'chaotic' formulas that bring the fractal patterns, the result seems to endlessly change with new random stuff while repeating other stuff, like evolution and every other change. Lots of natural things like plant shapes, coastline measurements, etc have fractal math connections already. Life could very well BE a fractal. Graphics made with fractal math are quite nice too.
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