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Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
#21
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
(November 12, 2015 at 12:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(November 11, 2015 at 2:17 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: The sentiments are appreciated, Brian, thanks.

If you want to thank a veteran, the best thing you can do is vigorously exercise your rights.

DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO!...........Note to self, did I think that, or type it? 

Absolutely! Why do you think I have that avatar?

It is indeed your right to adore an abhorrent band. Go your own way, brotha.

(November 12, 2015 at 2:31 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Hitler is still ultimately to blame for WW2. 

I, and many others, disagree. The Versailles Treaty, when imposed, was an abrogation of the Fourteen Points which President Wilson had plumped. The bitterness of Germans was assured by what looked to them like a bait-and-switch, and in such a political climate, redress would certainly have been sought, if not by Hitler, by another strongman -- especially considering the fractured politics of the Weimar Republic.

Hitler, according to some historians, didn't even instigate WWII; they reserve that "honor" to the Japanese invasion of China; the point being that that world diplomacy was so broken and antagonisms so heated that it would have broken out somewhere. In this view, which I'm not sure is right, WWII dates to 1937 or even as far back as 1931.

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#22
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
(November 12, 2015 at 8:06 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Hitler, according to some historians, didn't even instigate WWII; they reserve that "honor" to the Japanese invasion of China; the point being that that world diplomacy was so broken and antagonisms so heated that it would have broken out somewhere. In this view, which I'm not sure is right, WWII dates to 1937 or even as far back as 1931.

But they're extremely fringe. Hitler did, knowingly, start a war. He was out for blood and at one time said, every generation should experience war to harden them. What he didn't want was another world war. At least not at this point. He thought, he could get away with a localized conflict, but his ultimate goal was what he called "Lebensraum". Conquest to the east.

But when Britain and France declared war on Germany, he was at a loss. His creature Ribbentrop had promised him that they would protest his invasion of Poland, but they wouldn't act. Paul-Otto Schmidt, his chief interpreter, was present when he got the declarations of war and reported later that Hitler was rather surprised and asked "What now?"

Also, the German people was not ready to got to war. They still remembered WWI, the hunger years and the losses and, as opposed to Hitler's expectations, they didn't cheer as they did in 1914. Only when it seemed to turn into a victory run against the opponents of the first war, they got excited. Beating France into submission was where the old resentment of 1918 and the treaty of Versailes came in.

As far as the actual treaty is concerned, the main resentment stemmed from being branded as the only culprit for the war. Which was incorrect right from the get go. It was Austria-Hungary, which handed in the first declaration of war. Against Serbia. Russia was already mobilising and the German decision makers panicked. Mainly because they only had one plan in stock. The Schlieffen plan, which assumed an already existing alliance between France and Russia would attack Germany on two fronts. It was designed, going by the assumption, that the Russians would mobilise slowly. So, Germany had to beat the French quickly, in order to move their whole army to the East to counter a Russian attack. But Russia mobilised quicker than expected. And so Germany declared war on Russia, before the Russians declared war on Germany. Had they waited one or two days longer, the Russians would have declared the war anyway, since the mechanics of alliances were already in motion. At least that's what most historians agree on nowadays, having full access to all the archives.

Last, it's important to remember that WWI wasn't a war of liberty against opression. It was the last imperial war. All the nations involved had their parliaments and all the nations involved were colonial empires. And all the empires involved used up their colonial troops as cannon fodder before sacrificing their mainland citizens. The Germans, not out of good intentions, but because they lost their colonies early, weren't able to. But in German East Africa, they held the Entente troops at bay till 1918. Again, mostly sacrificing the native population.

And let's not forget, we're talking about ruling houses closely related to each other. The German emperor being a cousin of the Russian czar and a cousin of the british king, grandson of queen Victoria. Granted, the british royals were much more powerless compared to their German relative, but they were a German house, which only changed their family name from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha to Windsor in 1917. Renaming themselves after one of their residences.
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#23
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
Double
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#24
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
(November 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm)abaris Wrote:
(November 12, 2015 at 8:06 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Hitler, according to some historians, didn't even instigate WWII; they reserve that "honor" to the Japanese invasion of China; the point being that that world diplomacy was so broken and antagonisms so heated that it would have broken out somewhere. In this view, which I'm not sure is right, WWII dates to 1937 or even as far back as 1931.

But they're extremely fringe. Hitler did, knowingly, start a war. He was out for blood and at one time said, every generation should experience war to harden them. What he didn't want was another world war. At least not at this point. He thought, he could get away with a localized conflict, but his ultimate goal was what he called "Lebensraum". Conquest to the east.

It is fringe, and while I don't agree fully (as noted above) I do think there's justice to their point that the world was so fraught with tension that it wasn't a matter of if but when -- and the when in the view of received history might be a little Eurocentric.

(November 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm)abaris Wrote: But when Britain and France declared war on Germany, he was at a loss. His creature Ribbentrop had promised him that they would protest his invasion of Poland, but they wouldn't act. Paul-Otto Schmidt, his chief interpreter, was present when he got the declarations of war and reported later that Hitler was rather surprised and asked "What now?"

I know all this; this is where Hitler was called a carpet-chewer, for his anger at Britain's declaration.

(November 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm)abaris Wrote: Also, the German people was not ready to got to war. They still remembered WWI, the hunger years and the losses and, as opposed to Hitler's expectations, they didn't cheer as they did in 1914. Only when it seemed to turn into a victory run against the opponents of the first war, they got excited. Beating France into submission was where the old resentment of 1918 and the treaty of Versailes came in.

I certainly wasn't trying to argue that the Germans wanted the war. But the fact is that Hitler capitalized on the discrepancy between the Fourteen Points and the Versailles Treaty, not to mention in particular France's diligence in enforcing the treaty clauses in the Ruhr.

(November 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm)abaris Wrote: As far as the actual treaty is concerned, the main resentment stemmed from being branded as the only culprit for the war. Which was incorrect right from the get go. It was Austria-Hungary, which handed in the first declaration of war. Against Serbia. Russia was already mobilising and the German decision makers panicked. Mainly because they only had one plan in stock. The Schlieffen plan, which assumed an already existing alliance between France and Russia would attack Germany on two fronts. It was designed, going by the assumption, that the Russians would mobilise slowly. So, Germany had to beat the French quickly, in order to move their whole army to the East to counter a Russian attack. But Russia mobilised quicker than expected. And so Germany declared war on Russia, before the Russians declared war on Germany. Had they waited one or two days longer, the Russians would have declared the war anyway, since the mechanics of alliances were already in motion. At least that's what most historians agree on nowadays, having full access to all the archives.

While I agree with your analysis of the mechanics of the outbreak -- it was an unfolding of alliances and railway timetables, interacting to force politicians to act ahead of their game -- I was not making any point about the outbreak of war in 1914, but rather 1939 -- or 1937, or 1931.

(November 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm)abaris Wrote: Last, it's important to remember that WWI wasn't a war of liberty against opression. It was the last imperial war. All the nations involved had their parliaments and all the nations involved were colonial empires. And all the empires involved used up their colonial troops as cannon fodder before sacrificing their mainland citizens. The Germans, not out of good intentions, but because they lost their colonies early, weren't able to. But in German East Africa, they held the Entente troops at bay till 1918. Again, mostly sacrificing the native population.

And let's not forget, we're talking about ruling houses closely related to each other. The German emperor being a cousin of the Russian czar and a cousin of the british king, grandson of queen Victoria. Granted, the british royals were much more powerless compared to their German relative, but they were a German house, which only changed their family name from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha to Windsor in 1917. Renaming themselves after one of their residences.

No argument here. It was, in the final analysis, internecine warfare, or, in Tuchman's phrase, "Europe committing suicide."

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#25
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
(November 12, 2015 at 8:06 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(November 12, 2015 at 12:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO!...........Note to self, did I think that, or type it? 

Absolutely! Why do you think I have that avatar?

It is indeed your right to adore an abhorrent band. Go your own way, brotha.

(November 12, 2015 at 2:31 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Hitler is still ultimately to blame for WW2. 

I, and many others, disagree. The Versailles Treaty, when imposed, was an abrogation of the Fourteen Points which President Wilson had plumped. The bitterness of Germans was assured by what looked to them like a bait-and-switch, and in such a political climate, redress would certainly have been sought, if not by Hitler, by another strongman -- especially considering the fractured politics of the Weimar Republic.

Hitler, according to some historians, didn't even instigate WWII; they reserve that "honor" to the Japanese invasion of China; the point being that that world diplomacy was so broken and antagonisms so heated that it would have broken out somewhere. In this view, which I'm not sure is right, WWII dates to 1937 or even as far back as 1931.

Well bait and switch aside, whomever started it, the axes of Evil had oppressive intent and Hitler still did what he did and he was not a nice person.
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#26
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
(November 12, 2015 at 2:36 pm)Brian37 Wrote: We need to stop the global hording of wealth and drastically reduce pollution. The sooner the better. It is my hope that more global businesses, instead of looking at it as doom and gloom, look at it as an opportunity to problem solve.

This frustrates the hell out of me. You would think that huge corporations would jump all over this for the huge opportunity it obviously is. Clean energy is the future - like it or not. Dominate this business and you'll be rich beyond dreams. Elon Musk seems to be the only one who sees this.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
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#27
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
Europe hadn't had a good war since 1870 and even that was not general like the Napoleonic Wars or the 7 Years War.  You can't have all these clowns strutting around in uniforms like peacocks with a hard-on without glorifying war.  WWI might well have been an idea whose time had simply come.
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#28
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
(November 13, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Well bait and switch aside, whomever started it, the axes of Evil had oppressive intent and Hitler still did what he did and he was not a nice person.

Of course Hitler was a douchebag of the first order.

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#29
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
(November 13, 2015 at 6:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Europe hadn't had a good war since 1870 and even that was not general like the Napoleonic Wars or the 7 Years War.  You can't have all these clowns strutting around in uniforms like peacocks with a hard-on without glorifying war.  WWI might well have been an idea whose time had simply come.

It was a pregnancy waiting for birth; tripwires were strung everywhere.

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#30
RE: Veterans Day/ Thank You and OP/ED
That a fair way to put it.
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