Atheism as a teacher

[Edwardo Piet]

I can't disagree there at all. And being less controversial than I used to be - I definitely used to be worse - has certainly benefited me.

To be honest I'm not normally anywhere near this "Anti-religion" these days, it's just events like this that get me mad at religion. It's passion, I'm not actually visibly angry I'm sitting here quietly lol. I'm less angry and more frustrated when trying to explain why I think the motivation is religious.

[mralstoner]

I feel like because her opinion of religion is positive it is as though hers is right and more important and mine is wrong. I know I can't get in trouble for having an opinion just because it differs from that of someone else, but I need something to come back with to explain my argument in case the need arises as I'm not great at getting my point across as I can be very matter-of-fact.

Yeah, it's tough. Moderate Muslims can be very sensitive about these matters. I have a Muslim friend, she is serious about her religion but does not want to engage in debates whatsoever. It's a can of worms. She prays, fasts, eats halal, and covers her head, but then says "I don't want to know too many verses".

So how to confront people who are totally closed off and sensitive to the subject? Good question. If she engages in debate, that would require her to (a) concede that terrorists might have a credible interpretation of Islam, which then implies (b) her prophet Mohammed (and god Allah) might likewise be barbaric head-chopping terrorists.

So, it's no surprise that she gives no credence to the debate whatsoever, and wants to avoid the topic completely.

Maybe the way to approach it is to (a) for the sake of argument, assume that she is in the right, and that Islam is a religion of peace, and therefore (b) ask her for help in trying to understand how ISIS has misinterpreted Islam and © you can do that specifically by asking her to refute ISIS propaganda material that quotes from the Koran etc.

ISIS has a magazine (I forget the name) but I believe they quote liberally from the Koran. So, you could ask her for help in understanding how they've misinterpreted Islam. It's a long shot, but that might be one way to get past her wall of resistance and engage in the debate.

So, I would avoid directly arguing with her, and instead try an indirect approach of assuming she is right, and asking for her help in refuting ISIS propaganda. I doubt it will work, but that's the only approach I can think of.

[Edwardo Piet]

Source: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/qu.../long.html

Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10

If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they'd understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30

They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein." 2:39

There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48

Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50

"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81

Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

"They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom." 90

I do agree that the terrorists aren't misrepresenting the Koran.

That's the top 10 of cruelty and violence in the Koran, there's 532, yes five hundred and thirty two of them in the link, and that's just cruelty and violence: there is also anti-homosexuality sections, anti-women sections, and all sorts.

[Minimalist]

The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected.
— H L Mencken

Mencken wrote that in 1930.  Imagine the way he would feel today.

When Sunnis blow up mosque-loads of Shi'ites and Shi-ites blow up mosque-loads of Sunnis it is hard to shake the feeling that religion is at the heart of the explosions.  I suppose it would be more fair to say that "differences" in religion are the cause of the violence but I really don't see where any muslim could take solace from that.  As far as I am concerned anyone who kills people because of an invisible friend is a shithead.

[Edwardo Piet]

Differences in religion are the cause then, but then there's bombings of those who aren't Muslims at all, and there's the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

It is certainly true that Islamic scripture is particularly hard on its own people, specifically apostates. But there's certainly an awful lot in the Koran about killing nonbelievers. Just take a look at that quote and link in my post above yours Min.

[Minimalist]

But there's certainly an awful lot in the Koran about killing nonbelievers.

Granted, but the issue at hand in the OP was that they are killing other "believers," in great numbers.  You know where this is going, Evie.  The ones on the receiving end of the car bombs are not "True Muslims, " and thus no better than infidels.  Again, this IS a religious problem....whether the limp-wristed moderates like it or not.

[Edwardo Piet]

But what do you think would happen if we had burned a copy of the Koran on tonight's show? There would be riots in scores of countries. Embassies would fall. In response to our mistreating a book, millions of Muslims would take to the streets, and we would spend the rest of our lives fending off credible threats of murder. But when ISIS crucifies people, buries children alive, and rapes and tortures women by the thousands—all in the name of Islam—the response is a few small demonstrations in Europe and a hashtag.

"Can Liberalism Be Saved From Itself?" (October 7, 2014)

Source: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sam_Harris

[Minimalist]

I have to agree with him.

[Tiberius]

Source: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/qu.../long.html

Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10

If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they'd understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30

They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein." 2:39

There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48

Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50

"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81

Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

"They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom." 90

I do agree that the terrorists aren't misrepresenting the Koran.

That's the top 10 of cruelty and violence in the Koran, there's 532, yes five hundred and thirty two of them in the link, and that's just cruelty and violence: there is also anti-homosexuality sections, anti-women sections, and all sorts.

I get what you are trying to achieve with your point, but none of the passages you quoted say anything about killing innocent people in the name of Allah, rather most of them appear to be about what Allah will do to non-believers after they die.

Nobody is saying the Koran isn't a cruel and violent book in places, but cherry-picking verses, verses which don't even back up your underlying point, is pointless in this discussion.

[Edwardo Piet]

My point was merely to address those who were suggesting that suicide bombing isn't remotely religiously motivated and ISIS could just as easily be atheistic which makes no sense to me.

True I didn't pick the best quotes, I just selected the top 10, I should have just left the link really. Point is when you believe that stuff literally enough and put it into action it can have motivational consequences that aren't exactly pretty, whereas atheism isn't an ideology, Islam is.