Hello

[chasm]

I am an American atheist. I do not believe in any particular deity or deities, and I do not believe in souls. I have views that contradict each other. I'm weird in the sense that I don't grasp emotions. I am a very passionate, cynical person, and very vocal. I'm a very indecisive person when it comes to picking favorites. I admit I don't know everything. I'm about as unfeminine as a girl can get; I'm very much a tom boy.

I count my political views as anarchist liberal, meaning that I think the government shouldn't have as much power as it does and that everyone and anyone should have equal rights. I am a counselor at Camp Quest Ohio. I don't have any children and do not want any. I think abortion is okay. I'm currently a college student right now.

I became an atheist around the age of 12. I read Darwin's Theory of Evolution and never looked back. I was raised Christian, but I never went to church. I have read the Bible cover to cover. I've been reading the Torah and Koran as of late. Even though I'm not religious and don't believe in any of that nonsense, I do find the stories fascinating.

I'm tired of hypocrites and other lunatic people. Just a thought...

[Tiberius]

Welcome to the forums chasm!

I'm right with you on political terms, though I prefer either the name "Libertarian" or "minarchist" to describe myself. Hope you have a fun time here

[Paul the Human]

Welcome to AF! I'm in Michigan, so I know how tough it is to be an outspoken atheist in the midwest. I think you'll like it here.

[Caecilian]

Hi chasm!

Your political views sound interesting. Adrian is assuming that by 'anarchist liberal' you mean 'libertarian'. My guess is that you're more of an individualist anarchist of the Stirner/ Tucker type. The key issue is this: you oppose the state, well and good; how do you feel about capitalism?

[Tiberius]

I wasn't assuming anything, I was just noting that "anarchist liberal" is a description of a libertarian (the historic meaning of the word "Liberal" is what libertarianism (small L) has become). Libertarians are small state, pro-freedom. Simple as that.

It only gets complicated when you get down to categories of Libertarian. There are ultra-capitalist libertarians, socialist libertarians, paleo-libertarians, etc.

[Caecilian]

I wasn't assuming anything, I was just noting that "anarchist liberal" is a description of a libertarian (the historic meaning of the word "Liberal" is what libertarianism (small L) has become). Libertarians are small state, pro-freedom. Simple as that.

It only gets complicated when you get down to categories of Libertarian. There are ultra-capitalist libertarians, socialist libertarians, paleo-libertarians, etc.

Okay. Its just that the term 'libertarian' on its own (without any qualifiers) has come to mean 'right-wing libertarian'. At the very least, thats how the term is commonly used. Check out the various libertarian parties (in the US, the UK etc)- they're all ultra-capitalistic.

[Tiberius]

I think you are talking about Libertarianism (big L) as opposed to libertarian (small l). My fault for capitalising it in my original post. The big-L Libertarianism is generally the one associated with parties; whilst the small-L libertarianism refers to the political ideology itself.

[Caecilian]

I think you are talking about Libertarianism (big L) as opposed to libertarian (small l). My fault for capitalising it in my original post. The big-L Libertarianism is generally the one associated with parties; whilst the small-L libertarianism refers to the political ideology itself.

I don't think that its necessarily to do with big L or small l. Its just how the term 'libertarian' is used. With qualifiers (e.g. left-libertarian, libertarian marxist etc) it can refer to a left-wing political position. But just on its own, 'libertarian' always seems to mean 'right-wing libertarian'.

If you look at the word 'anarchist' then you'll see that something very similar has happened. The term actually refers to someone who is opposed to the existence of the state; strictly speaking an 'anarchist' could be left-wing, right-wing or centrist on economic issues. However, when 'anarchist' is used without qualifiers, it always seems to indicate left-wing anarchism. With qualifiers, of course, you can get market anarchism, anarcho-capitalism etc.

The upshot of which is that if someone is described as 'libertarian', then my assumption is that it means right-wing; whereas if someone is described as 'anarchist', my assumption is that it means left-wing.

'Anarchist liberal' is interesting, though. It could refer to just about any libertarian/ anarchist position. Partly, I guess, it depends on what is meant by 'liberal', a word that is used very differently in Europe and America.

[Tiberius]

Well I've never thought of the word "anarchist" to mean "left-wing". In fact it seems more obvious to me that without a state, you wouldn't be able to introduce left-wing economic policies, so you'd have to go with a natural market (i.e. a free market with no rules / regulations).

I'm friends with a few libertarians, and they all refer to themselves as anarchists or minarchists from time to time (myself included). Indeed, the Wikipedia article on Libertarianism mentions that several Libertarian views are openly anarchistic (in the first paragraph). Even Noam Chomsky (a noted left-wing libertarian) states that the term is "considered throughout the world a synonym for anarchism".

I have to disagree with your point on libertarianism though; the word itself means a multitude of things. There is no default "right-wing" position of libertarianism, and I think most political theorists would agree with me. Certainly that is why such groups as the "Political Compass" have it as a region spanning both the left and the right of their classification map. I agree, when political groups call themselves "Libertarian" in their name, they tend to be right-wing, but then there are quite a few groups who are left-wing and still have libertarian values.

The things that both left and right libertarians share are what make the name "libertarian" have meaning. We are all big on civil rights; individual liberty, and a minimal state intervention. The only reason there are different groups of us, and different "wings" in the political spectrum, is that we have internal disagreements over the best ways to maximise liberty and not have total chaos. Some (like myself) believe the freer the market, the freer the people, whilst others want regulation on the market (or a form of personal socialism).

[Caecilian]

Well I've never thought of the word "anarchist" to mean "left-wing". In fact it seems more obvious to me that without a state, you wouldn't be able to introduce left-wing economic policies, so you'd have to go with a natural market (i.e. a free market with no rules / regulations).

Well, I can only say that historically the major political movements that have called themselves 'anarchist' have all been left-wing. If you look at the contemporary British political scene, you'll see the same thing. In fact, I doubt if you'd be able to find a single organization in the UK which calls itself 'anarchist'- without additional qualifiers- and isn't left-wing.

I have to disagree with your point on libertarianism though; the word itself means a multitude of things. There is no default "right-wing" position of libertarianism, and I think most political theorists would agree with me. Certainly that is why such groups as the "Political Compass" have it as a region spanning both the left and the right of their classification map. I agree, when political groups call themselves "Libertarian" in their name, they tend to be right-wing, but then there are quite a few groups who are left-wing and still have libertarian values.

The things that both left and right libertarians share are what make the name "libertarian" have meaning. We are all big on civil rights; individual liberty, and a minimal state intervention. The only reason there are different groups of us, and different "wings" in the political spectrum, is that we have internal disagreements over the best ways to maximise liberty and not have total chaos. Some (like myself) believe the freer the market, the freer the people, whilst others want regulation on the market (or a form of personal socialism).

I agree that 'libertarian' (and for that matter 'anarchist') shouldn't have left/ right connotations, but in practice it does, at least when the term is used without qualifiers. Left-wing libertarians call themselves left-libertarians, libertarian marxists, neo-anarchists or whatever. Right-wing libertarians often refer to themselves simply as 'libertarians'. Actually, I don't think that we're disagreeing about anything too substantial here.

As far as libertarian values go, as a left-libertarian with strong anarchist leanings I'd have to say that we're not on the same side. In other words: while our values and views may sometimes coincide, you and I are not in any sense natural political allies. Quite the opposite, in fact. Its not just a sort of internal disagreement about how to maximize liberty, its among other things a very fundamental dispute about what liberty is.