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'Prove claims' question.
#1
'Prove claims' question.
Question on the burden of proof on claims.
If someone says "God exists" then the burden of proof is on them because they claim it to be so.
But what I want to know is if they instead said "I think God exists", would this really be a claim? Would it count? If not could they simply go around saying they only "think" it but still convince others that God exists with their preaching, teaching and/or arguments because they keep adding "I think"?
In short if a someone inserts "I think" in front of a claim such as "God exists" would it count as a claim and would the burden of proof still be on them?
I'm interested to know.
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#2
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
(December 14, 2008 at 7:32 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Question on the burden of proof on claims.
If someone says "God exists" then the burden of proof is on them because they claim it to be so.
But what I want to know is if they instead said "I think God exists", would this really be a claim? Would it count? If not could they simply go around saying they only "think" it but still convince others that God exists with their preaching, teaching and/or arguments because they keep adding "I think"?
In short if a someone inserts "I think" in front of a claim such as "God exists" would it count as a claim and would the burden of proof still be on them?
I'm interested to know.
Well EvF I suppose it may be pertinent whether the " claimant " is on a mission. To say that you think anything opens up the reply as to why you believe. Thus the burden of proof is still there. If you don't come up with a good answer, why should anyone go with it?
It's not the same thing but I've lost count of the number of people ( in denial ) who start off by saying " I'm not a racist... BUT " and then spout racist rhetoric.
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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#3
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
Right I see. I guess that if asked "why" they could just reply with "because I think again" and if they eventually didn't say "I think", then perhaps because its difficult to get them to actually claim something its easier for them to slip through?
If that makes any sense? And if I have understood you correctly?
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#4
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
To my mind, "I think" denotes opinion and opinion is not a claim as such ... it does, however, depend very much on how it is expressed.

Kyu
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#5
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
It's an old trick used by newspapers and other media as well.

'President Bush is an asshole.' would be opening up the floodgates to lawsuits.
'I think President Bush is an asshole.' expresses your personal feeling on the subject.
'President Bush is an asshole?' is the way the news agencies express their view without the threat of a lawsuit because it is not a claim but a question.

'Why do atheists want to destroy Christmas?' is one I saw recently. Good way of poisoning the well.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#6
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
I'm not sure if God exists. Before debating with you guys I would have said: I think God exists. Looking at both sides' arguments I can see how science and logic seem to support there being no God. I must admit I want there to be a God, but at the same time I can't ignore 'the evidence'. You guys need to be patient with us believers because it's hard to let go of this desire that is as strong as 'hunger' or 'love', well it is for me it seems.

Daystar, why are you losing it? You can come out with some very interesting things, but lately you give in to sarcasm, impatience, rudeness it seems. I wouldn't want to debate, if I felt like that, so I wonder why you bother?
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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#7
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, we all know it well. Some like daystar try to reverse it, which would never work since you cannot dis-prove a negative. You can't bring evidence against something that does not exist. You could challenge it if there was evidence since it would require us to look into it and try to bring evidence for the contrary.

I once looked into the possibility of a god but not through my up bringing or my regional religion.

I looked into ALL religions and I noticed they all say the same thing. Follow or go to hell. Not one would say you don't have to follow just as longs as you are moral. Also the other thing they all have in common is that they all make the claim of an all powerful being and that no one can prove it. Not one religion in this world has ever managed to bring evidence. Not one theist throughout mankind's entire history has ever managed to bring any kind of evidence. Throughout all those many thousands of years and many millions of theists and none of them has ever brought anything forward as evidence. This tells me that all religions/gods are false due to such a lack of evidence. It was because of this that I turned atheist at an early age and remained so until I see some evidence. I shall keep an open mind to the possibility but have already dismissed it.

Online is the only time I ever speak of religion/god. Outside this Internet there is no such word as "god". I don't even acknowledge religion in anyway outside this pc. I have no reason to. It would be like acknowledging santas house with all the little elves and that they exist even though there is no evidence to say they do. So I ignore religion entirely.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Daystar, don't forget that.Wink
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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#8
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
(December 15, 2008 at 5:44 am)CoxRox Wrote: I'm not sure if God exists. Before debating with you guys I would have said: I think God exists. Looking at both sides' arguments I can see how science and logic seem to support there being no God. I must admit I want there to be a God, but at the same time I can't ignore 'the evidence'. You guys need to be patient with us believers because it's hard to let go of this desire that is as strong as 'hunger' or 'love', well it is for me it seems.


I know people like you ... academically/intellectually they are atheist but they'd really like to believe if they could find a reason to do so ... you're just a bit further back (from my POV) down the line. A lot of us have been there (not me I admit, my religious world was one of obedience/reward and disobedience/punishment) ... what I think you should do is look into how god is a good thing with the aim of finding out if it is true. Whatever the result you are to be commended for testing your faith.

(December 15, 2008 at 5:44 am)CoxRox Wrote: Daystar, why are you losing it? You can come out with some very interesting things, but lately you give in to sarcasm, impatience, rudeness it seems. I wouldn't want to debate, if I felt like that, so I wonder why you bother?

Because he knows he can't win, he knows no one here respects his arguments and most of us can raise far better arguments against his crap than he can in return ... it frustrates him and as a result I think he's gone "berserker" IMO.

In fact I think there should be a new classification (call it "Berserker" just to humour me) for people who are doing what Daystar now seems to be doing ... it's like trolling but the Berserker sticks around witnessing and getting a kick from the chaos and destruction he/she creates.

Kyu
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#9
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
Ace, you make some good points.

Kyu, you said: 'what I think you should do is look into how god is a good thing with the aim of finding out if it is true.'

I suppose I have always thought of God as a good thing most of my life even though I've always doubted He is really there. If I am worried about something and I pray to Him, I may feel at more peace - ( I'm aware this is more likely some kind of psychological effect taking place: my own positive reinforcement thing going on). When I think how fortunate I am to have my family, plenty of food, a roof over my head etc, I feel like I want to thank 'God' for all I have. I feel 'gratitude' that I need to express somehow. For me, believing in a God has maybe had a positive effect on the whole, but I know for many it has the opposite: fundamentalists who are willing to kill for what they believe. It is almost a tangible part of me now, although I can see it may be false, but I see no harm in holding on to it as a possibiltiy. So for believers like me there are two things for you to contend with:

1) Knowledge of various religious beliefs that has been gathered during a lifetime -( by debating we can test these beliefs thoroughly it is hoped.)

2) The physical or rather physchological effects this knowledge has had on the person. Some of these effects can be almost like having a drug experience, so the believer can be 'rewarded' for believing these things maybe?? So when I feel peace after praying, maybe I've released some seratonin or something like that because I feel a release, as if I've unburdened myself. Feelings are powerful and it can be hard to separate them from reason. I hope you see what I'm saying.

As for Daystar, I hope he isn't a Beserker (like that word alot). It's up to him to show he isn't. If he can't see how he is being perceived then he has a problem. I hope he calms down and stops getting so het up. We're here to debate stuff, and if someone can't see your point of view, well it aint the end of the world. Move on.....Tongue
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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#10
RE: 'Prove claims' question.
(December 15, 2008 at 10:18 am)CoxRox Wrote: When I think how fortunate I am to have my family, plenty of food, a roof over my head etc, I feel like I want to thank 'God' for all I have. I feel 'gratitude' that I need to express somehow.

NO! Tongue Thank the scientists for their vaccines and technological advancements that led you to having a healthy family. Thank the political activists and honest politicians who ordered for a roof to be put over the head of every individual in the country,and the builders who did the work. Thank the farmers for making food, thank the transporters for taking it near where you are, thank the corporations for selling it to you, thank the scientists who worked on enhancing the products to a fine, store-front condition. Stop thanking a being you cannot prove for the things that millions of people have worked their lives away on over centuries to make civilisation what it is today. (even though I find alot of it to be a sham, con, cock-up and rigjob Tongue). If you're feeling somewhat appreciative, aim your appreciation at the people who were responsible Smile

I meant all that nicely by the way, it wasn't meant to come of as insensitive or flamey.
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