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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 11:17 pm
(May 26, 2016 at 7:09 pm)dom.donald Wrote: If everyone and everything in the universe behaves according to a deterministic set of rules, once the initial conditions of the system have been set, everything is (necessarily) pre-determined. If you introduce any kind of 'random-ness' into the rules, then things are no longer pre-determined. The question is, are all the rules deterministic? If they are not deterministic, then things aren't predetermined, but there is still no free will.
Why couldn't these rules have evolved naturally? Is there any true randomness in the universe? Whether or not things could turn out one way or another (e.g. rules may themselves evolve), I don't believe we have free will, and that it is just an illusion.
Thats the thing we have been arguing about if god supposedly knows everything there goes free will out of the window no question about it.
Ignorance has been saying we can have free will and god can know everything that is simply impossibly you can only have one of the other not both.
If things are predeterministic the future already exist and we are simply a consciousness living in the past going a long on a time line that already exists.
If there is that wild card of which you speak off yes it could exist and there is free will. So no the rules them selves wouldn't be deterministic if there is no free will
but probabilistic since there are so many choices.
The laws of the universe are probabilistic in nature and always will be. The more you look at the smaller and smaller bits of matter and quarks and tetraquark which
is the smallest thing the LHC found. And they will probably more than likely find smaller bits of particles as well. The other thing is light itself strange but interesting
it is both a wave and a particle in a deterministic universe such a thing would be improbable but since it is probabilistic such things can and will happen.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 12:13 am
(This post was last modified: May 27, 2016 at 12:15 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm)Ignorant Wrote: (May 26, 2016 at 4:49 pm)Rhythm Wrote: ... Can I choose b, if gods foreknowledge says a?
No. Then that's it, for me. Finit, caput. I cannot so much as choose between a or b. What's all this free will business? Is free will the freedom to freely will a choice between a and a? That hardly seems worth talking about.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 12:45 am
(May 27, 2016 at 12:13 am)Rhythm Wrote: (May 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm)Ignorant Wrote: No. Then that's it, for me. Finit, caput. I cannot so much as choose between a or b. What's all this free will business? Is free will the freedom to freely will a choice between a and a? That hardly seems worth talking about.
This is the text book definition of free will - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
But arguing for foreknowledge brings up fate and its destined for us to go to hell.
So i don't know why Ignorant is arguing for a all knowing god and free will they are just incompatible. Sine god would know the
overall outcome of our fate.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 2:21 am
(May 27, 2016 at 12:13 am)Rhythm Wrote: Then that's it, for me. Finit, caput. I cannot so much as choose between a or b.
Well, I said that, given the condition that god foreknows that you will choose a, you cannot choose b. Let me ask you a question:
Can you choose a, if god's foreknowledge says a?
Quote:What's all this free will business?
This is a good question which requires a discussion about contingent action and the conditions for freedom.
Quote: Is free will the freedom to freely will a choice between a and a?
No.
Quote: That hardly seems worth talking about.
Well, it may be a start for a discussion about what freedom actually is, which I think is worth talking about.
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 4:49 am
(May 27, 2016 at 12:45 am)dyresand Wrote: This is the text book definition of free will - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Sure, that is a single textbook definition. If you investigate the concept of free will further (and I invite you to do so), you will discover that there are several definitions for free-will. Some of them are more adequate (i.e. some describe more of the concept) than others.
Also, fate (i.e. determination) does not = necessity.
Quote:But arguing for foreknowledge brings up fate and its destined for us to go to hell.
So i don't know why Ignorant is arguing for a all knowing god and free will they are just incompatible. Sine god would know the
overall outcome of our fate.
I am arguing because I reject this premise. I have supplied reasons why I reject this premise. So far, your response has been, "no you're wrong, the premise is true". I am sorry that I am not convinced on your authority alone.
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 7:04 am
(This post was last modified: May 27, 2016 at 7:31 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 27, 2016 at 2:21 am)Ignorant Wrote: Well, I said that, given the condition that god foreknows that you will choose a, you cannot choose b. Let me ask you a question:
Can you choose a, if god's foreknowledge says a?
It's the only thing I can choose, if the claim to foreknowledge is true. You said as much yourself.
Quote:This is a good question which requires a discussion about contingent action and the conditions for freedom.
Doesn't seem so. The question was rhetorical. Knowing that I cannot choose b is all I need to know in order to conclude that the concept doesn't work in concert with foreknowledge.
Quote:No.
You just said that it was.
Quote:Well, it may be a start for a discussion about what freedom actually is, which I think is worth talking about.
You mean a discussion of what you believe freedom really is and anything other than continuing -this- discussion? If you think freedom is the ability to choose between a and a, as you described in relation to gods foreknowledge and free will, regardless of whether or not you are comfortable with the consequences......I'm not interested.
I'm sure there are as many definitions as you will require to excuse yourself from any objections contained -within- them. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 7:34 am
(This post was last modified: May 27, 2016 at 7:35 am by Ignorant.)
(May 27, 2016 at 7:04 am)Rhythm Wrote: It's the only thing I can choose, if the claim to foreknowledge is true. You said as much yourself. -emphasis mine
So is it a choice or not?
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 7:48 am
(May 27, 2016 at 7:04 am)Rhythm Wrote: You just said that it [free will] was [the freedom to freely will a choice between a and a].
Can you quote me where I said this?
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 8:07 am
(This post was last modified: May 27, 2016 at 8:11 am by The Grand Nudger.)
It doesn't matter whether or not it's a choice. It's not -and cannot be- a freely willed one. I must choose a. I cannot choose b.
When you excluded b in a total option set that included a whopping two options...a, or b. Tell me, whats left in the set of a and b, when b is removed?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will
May 27, 2016 at 8:10 am
(This post was last modified: May 27, 2016 at 8:10 am by Ignorant.)
(May 27, 2016 at 8:07 am)Rhythm Wrote: It doesn't matter whether or not it's a choice. It's not -and cannot be- a freely willed one. I must choose a. I cannot choose b.
That's fine, let's suppose that it isn't a freely will choice. Is it a choice nonetheless?
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