Free will

[Shadow_Man]

If god knew it would come up six prior to the roll, as it must if god is truly an all knowing god of past, present and future, then any randomness is simply an illusion. It only feels random to you. If it did not come up six then the omniscient god does not exist. You can have one or the other, you can't have both.

All you have done is re-state the assertion that foreknowledge precludes free will. Now you need to justify or demonstrate it. Otherwise, I certainly can have both.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

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Rhythm,

Foreknowledge precludes freewill in that nothing else -can- happen, but that which said foreknowledge describes, or else it isn't foreknowledge at all.

No. Nothing else -will- happen. There is a difference.

No choice can be made, no diverging paths of decision. One stream, one outcome, one conclusion, no deviation.

No. The choice -will- be made, all diverging paths and streams -will- be freely rejected, and the foreknown conclusion -will- turn out to be the one that is freely selected.

You don't -know- that you will go to work tomorrow.  You have a reasonable expectation.

Accepted. My foreknowledge is imperfect.

However, you may die in your sleep,

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you may wake up and say "fuck work".  

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If you -knew- you would go to work tomorrow, that would mean that nothing could happen to you tonight to prevent it,

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and you -could not- decide otherwise in the morning.

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If you had foreknowledge of this,

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you would be incapable of choosing otherwise and

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nothing on this earth would be capable of stopping you from getting to work.

(Hiding mine, to isolate one concept.)
No. On the one hand, with complete foreknowledge I could see every detail of the night, and see that even though a thousand things -could- stop me, nothing -would- stop me.

On the other hand, the action of the universe is irrelevant. My free will is my ability to make up my own mind and make my own choices within my ability to enact them. It is understood that there are many choices that are not available to me, or that have been, or will be, made for me. I was born a specific gender, in a specific family, in a specific city, state, and country. I have specific physical characteristics determined by genetics. I could be hit by a bus and be maimed or killed at any time. Our concept of free will does not depend on the absence of such influences.

However,

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you may die in your sleep,

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you may wake up and say "fuck work".  If you -knew- you would go to work tomorrow, that would mean that

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nothing could happen to you tonight to prevent it, and

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you -could not- decide otherwise in the morning.

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If you had foreknowledge of this,

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you would be incapable of choosing otherwise

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and nothing on this earth would be capable of stopping you from getting to work.

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(Hiding mine, to isolate a second concept.)
No. I certainly -could- change my mind. But when events unfold I will be found to have done exactly what was foreknown entirely of my own free will. I -could- do something else, but I -will- do what was foreknown. Foreknowledge does not render me incapable of choosing, it sees what my choice will be. All other choices are still possible, but will be freely rejected in the moment.

Looking at it using my previous analogy, I roll the dice. The nature of the roll is that it is random. It comes up 6. Having come up 6 does not change the random nature of the roll. Having come up 6 does not suddenly make that the only outcome that "could" have happened. It makes it the only outcome that "did" happen. We always knew there would only be one outcome, which would be based on the random nature of the roll.

So now I know the outcome of the roll. My new-found knowledge places no constraint on what the outcome "had" to have been. My knowing the outcome has no effect whatsoever on the random nature of the roll. My position in the time line when I gain this knowledge has no effect on the nature of the roll. If I rolled the dice while blindfolded and then never looked at the outcome, that lack of knowledge would not have left the roll random, whereas looking at it somehow constrained it to that outcome and no other.

Knowledge, or lack of knowledge, of the outcome of the roll, either before or after the roll in the time line, has no effect whatsoever on the random nature of the roll. God's ability to see the outcome ahead of time does not change the random nature of the roll. In fact, God is the one who set up the universe so that the roll would be random in nature.

The same is true for the nature of our free will. God's actions created it. God's knowledge does not change its nature.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

[scoobysnack]

Rather an interesting concept; free will. So for those that don't think we have free will, do we have a predetermined fate, and if so who controls it? Could be the case to an extent. I've heard we have chose to come to earth and inhabit certain humans for the experience that we need to learn certain lessons. Some come to earth to be aborted to help others learn lessons. Some choose to be mentally retarded to live a challenged life so they can advance spiritually. Others come to enjoy the material pleasures of life. However, if we choose to come to experience challenges in life, does that mean everything we do is predetermined, or is the challenge meant to overcome and succeed?

[brewer]

SM, good luck with your fantasy delusion. You're certainly not alone. But your numbers are fading.

[dyresand]

Rather an interesting concept; free will. So for those that don't think we have free will, do we have a predetermined fate, and if so who controls it? Could be the case to an extent. I've heard we have chose to come to earth and inhabit certain humans for the experience that we need to learn certain lessons. Some come to earth to be aborted to help others learn lessons. Some choose to be mentally retarded to live a challenged life so they can advance spiritually. Others come to enjoy the material pleasures of life. However, if we choose to come to experience challenges in life, does that mean everything we do is predetermined, or is the challenge meant to overcome and succeed?

There is two scenarios well more i will just lay them out.

1. god doesn't exist we have free will.

2. god is not all knowing free will exists.

So if you want to claim all knowing throw out the idea of free will you have your cake you cannot eat but you can
look at it. So again those two choices. Someone being mentally handicapped and there was a all knowing god it would
be god's fault said person is like that not the person themselves. Same goes with murderers, rapists, child abusers 
and so on so fourth. Since god would be creating evil people to do evil things it's not the persons direct fault it is that
of the creator so on so fourth. Now if god wasn't all knowing it wouldn't be the creators fault it would be the persons own
actions and the person is at fault.

[dyresand]

If god knew it would come up six prior to the roll, as it must if god is truly an all knowing god of past, present and future, then any randomness is simply an illusion. It only feels random to you. If it did not come up six then the omniscient god does not exist. You can have one or the other, you can't have both.

All you have done is re-state the assertion that foreknowledge precludes free will. Now you need to justify or demonstrate it. Otherwise, I certainly can have both.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

Regards,
Shadow_Man

you keep asserting you have free will like everyone else does. Given the scenario a god exists
and he is all knowing he would have programmed you to disagree with us even if god the creator is all knowing
we still have free will despite the obvious paradox it creates. Simply put god would be lying through proxy saying
we have free will when we don't. You do understand the whole you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You are 
saying you can have your cake and eat it too. You are looking for a middle way with the alternatives to where there
is simply NULL. So the case would be either god is lying through proxy if god does exist or you are determined to 
disagree on the notion of free will and all loving god so what is it.

[Shadow_Man]

dyresand,

you keep asserting you have free will like everyone else does.

No.

I observe that I have free will. I observe that under circumstances with identical pertinent conditions I am able to make, and have made, different choices at different times, in accordance with my own thoughts in the moment, and that everybody has this same ability. I observe that knowledge of my choice does not change its free nature.

I observe that the nature of rolling dice is that the outcome is random. I observe that my knowledge of the outcome of the roll does not change the random nature of the roll.

I demonstrate that foreknowledge does not contradict free will.

Given the scenario a god exists and he is all knowing he would have programmed you to disagree with us even if god the creator is all knowing we still have free will despite the obvious paradox it creates. Simply put god would be lying through proxy saying we have free will when we don't. You do understand the whole you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You are saying you can have your cake and eat it too.

No. I am saying you have set up a false dichotomy, and all you have provided to back it up is that to you it seems like an "obvious paradox." Well, I assure you that to me what is quite obvious is that it is not a paradox. The difference between you and I is that you have made a claim without justifying it, while I have demonstrated that your claim is false. Knowledge of an outcome has no effect on the nature of the process that produced the outcome, thus free will and foreknowledge are entirely compatible.

You are looking for a middle way with the alternatives to where there is simply NULL. So the case would be either god is lying through proxy if god does exist or you are determined to disagree on the notion of free will and all loving god so what is it.

I am determined to continue to point out that you must do better than make the assertion that foreknowledge precludes free will; you must justify or demonstrate that claim. Repeating the claim in different ways is not enough. Calling it obvious is not enough.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

[dyresand]

dyresand,

you keep asserting you have free will like everyone else does.

No.

I observe that I have free will. I observe that under circumstances with identical pertinent conditions I am able to make, and have made, different choices at different times, in accordance with my own thoughts in the moment, and that everybody has this same ability. I observe that knowledge of my choice does not change its free nature.

I observe that the nature of rolling dice is that the outcome is random. I observe that my knowledge of the outcome of the roll does not change the random nature of the roll.

I demonstrate that foreknowledge does not contradict free will.

Given the scenario a god exists and he is all knowing he would have programmed you to disagree with us even if god the creator is all knowing we still have free will despite the obvious paradox it creates. Simply put god would be lying through proxy saying we have free will when we don't. You do understand the whole you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You are saying you can have your cake and eat it too.

No. I am saying you have set up a false dichotomy, and all you have provided to back it up is that to you it seems like an "obvious paradox." Well, I assure you that to me what is quite obvious is that it is not a paradox. The difference between you and I is that you have made a claim without justifying it, while I have demonstrated that your claim is false. Knowledge of an outcome has no effect on the nature of the process that produced the outcome, thus free will and foreknowledge are entirely compatible.

You are looking for a middle way with the alternatives to where there is simply NULL. So the case would be either god is lying through proxy if god does exist or you are determined to disagree on the notion of free will and all loving god so what is it.

I am determined to continue to point out that you must do better than make the assertion that foreknowledge precludes free will; you must justify or demonstrate that claim. Repeating the claim in different ways is not enough. Calling it obvious is not enough.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

1. I will stress this if a god existed free will would be a illusion you would perceive you have free will but you wouldn't know 
and you couldn't know. 

2. This is all hypothetical either or both sides of what i am saying is fairly balanced and yes there is a obvious paradox your god is full of them i just
ignored everything and went with all knowing.   If god existed again your observations from a all powerful being be changed by his/her own will to give you that illusion you have free will do you understand? A all knowing being would have to keep up that facade to his creations of having free will. 

3. Well what is god all knowing or not all knowing that is the basis of what im asking. it's simple as that do you think 
god is all knowing yes or no.

[Rhondazvous]

Foreknowledge precludes free will when you add omnipotence. . If your god does not control what people do then why do you pray to him? Why does the bible tell us to pray for our rulers if god does not in some way control what they do? Even if you say god does not control everything, you have neither knowledge nor control over what god chooses to intervene. So how do you know on any given day at any given moment if what you are doing is from your free will or from god controlling you? What percent of your actions has god decided he needs to control in order to fulfill his plan?

[Shadow_Man]

dyresand,

1. I will stress this if a god existed free will would be a illusion you would perceive you have free will but you wouldn't know and you couldn't know.

No. According to your logic free will is an illusion with or without God's foreknowledge. According to your logic, if you know what happened, then it is the only thing that could possibly have happened, so there was no choice in the matter, so there was no free will. If you thought something, then it is the only thing you could possibly have thought, so you had no choice in the matter, so you have no free will. Your logic is flawed. Knowledge is not constraint.

2. This is all hypothetical either or both sides of what i am saying is fairly balanced and yes there is a obvious paradox your god is full of them i just ignored everything and went with all knowing.   If god existed again your observations from a all powerful being be changed by his/her own will to give you that illusion you have free will do you understand? A all knowing being would have to keep up that facade to his creations of having free will.

Now you want to throw omnipotence into the mix, claiming that without it the illusion isn't possible. But you previously claimed that it was incontrovertibly logical that foreknowledge alone was all that was needed to preclude free will and make our observations illusory. Which is it?

3. Well what is god all knowing or not all knowing that is the basis of what im asking. it's simple as that do you think god is all knowing yes or no.

Let's be clear here. You did not ask a question. You made an assertion. But now that you are asking, the answer is yes, God is omniscient.

In other news -

Someone being mentally handicapped and there was a all knowing god it would be god's fault said person is like that not the person themselves. Same goes with murderers, rapists, child abusers and so on so fourth. Since god would be creating evil people to do evil things it's not the persons direct fault it is that of the creator so on so fourth.

According to you we must lay at God's feet the guilt for all the evil that men do. Why?

Since god would know our actions a head of time that being said free will is just a illusion and were all drones.

Because we are God's puppets, and thus cannot be faulted.

But what you fail to realize is that people being puppets does not make God guilty, it absolves Him of all guilt. Why?

Because puppets do not think, do not feel, and do not act. Puppets cannot be murderers, neither can they be murdered. Puppets cannot be rapists, neither can they be raped. When you pull your puppet's string and it says "I love you" it does not actually love you, it is just replaying it's pre-programmed line. The animatronic vagina cares not one whit where, when, how, or whether it is penetrated by the automated phallus. Being pre-programmed to say "Stop. Don't do that." does not give it actual concern for what is happening.

Logic does not lead where you think it does. If we have free will, then we are responsible for our own evil. If we have no free will then no evil has been perpetrated at all.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

[dyresand]

dyresand,

1. I will stress this if a god existed free will would be a illusion you would perceive you have free will but you wouldn't know and you couldn't know.

No. According to your logic free will is an illusion with or without God's foreknowledge. According to your logic, if you know what happened, then it is the only thing that could possibly have happened, so there was no choice in the matter, so there was no free will. If you thought something, then it is the only thing you could possibly have thought, so you had no choice in the matter, so you have no free will. Your logic is flawed. Knowledge is not constraint.

2. This is all hypothetical either or both sides of what i am saying is fairly balanced and yes there is a obvious paradox your god is full of them i just ignored everything and went with all knowing.   If god existed again your observations from a all powerful being be changed by his/her own will to give you that illusion you have free will do you understand? A all knowing being would have to keep up that facade to his creations of having free will.

Now you want to throw omnipotence into the mix, claiming that without it the illusion isn't possible. But you previously claimed that it was incontrovertibly logical that foreknowledge alone was all that was needed to preclude free will and make our observations illusory. Which is it?

3. Well what is god all knowing or not all knowing that is the basis of what im asking. it's simple as that do you think god is all knowing yes or no.

Let's be clear here. You did not ask a question. You made an assertion. But now that you are asking, the answer is yes, God is omniscient.

In other news -

Someone being mentally handicapped and there was a all knowing god it would be god's fault said person is like that not the person themselves. Same goes with murderers, rapists, child abusers and so on so fourth. Since god would be creating evil people to do evil things it's not the persons direct fault it is that of the creator so on so fourth.

According to you we must lay at God's feet the guilt for all the evil that men do. Why?

Since god would know our actions a head of time that being said free will is just a illusion and were all drones.

Because we are God's puppets, and thus cannot be faulted.

But what you fail to realize is that people being puppets does not make God guilty, it absolves Him of all guilt. Why?

Because puppets do not think, do not feel, and do not act. Puppets cannot be murderers, neither can they be murdered. Puppets cannot be rapists, neither can they be raped. When you pull your puppet's string and it says "I love you" it does not actually love you, it is just replaying it's pre-programmed line. The animatronic vagina cares not one whit where, when, how, or whether it is penetrated by the automated phallus. Being pre-programmed to say "Stop. Don't do that." does not give it actual concern for what is happening.

Logic does not lead where you think it does. If we have free will, then we are responsible for our own evil. If we have no free will then no evil has been perpetrated at all.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

TLDR is god all knowing yes or no it's that simple...