Free will

[Shadow_Man]

Rhondazvous,

Foreknowledge precludes free will when you add omnipotence.

Please justify or demonstrate the validity of this assertion. Just because I can squash you like a bug doesn't mean that I will.

If your god does not control what people do then why do you pray to him?

Your question is so astounding I'm not sure what to make of it. Can you honestly think of no other reason to pray to God than to petition Him to control other people for you?

I pray to God for healing, for guidance, for protection from harm, for forgiveness of transgressions, etc.

Why does the bible tell us to pray for our rulers if god does not in some way control what they do?

Astounding. You equate praying for someone with praying that God will control them?

I pray to God for healing, for guidance, for protection from harm, for forgiveness of transgressions, etc. on behalf of our rulers.

Even if you say god does not control everything, you have neither knowledge nor control over what god chooses to intervene.

I certainly have no control over God, and He is under no obligation to inform me about all that He is doing.

So how do you know on any given day at any given moment if what you are doing is from your free will or from god controlling you?

God never violates my free will. He never controls me.

What percent of your actions has god decided he needs to control in order to fulfill his plan?

Zero.

You seem to think that God's plan is some big, unknowable mystery. It is not. He has already told us what it is. God is establishing a family of sons and daughters who will be like-minded with Him, and suitable to share eternity with Him. Jesus was his only begotten son. The rest of us are adopted. Free will is a foundational necessity within this process. We freely choose to be adopted, or freely reject that adoption.

What use is there in pulling the doll's string and having it say its pre-programmed "I love you?" None. But having fully sentient beings freely fall in love with you, freely declare that love, and tell you they want to live with you forever, starting now - that is wondrous. That is the plan. It is unfolding before your eyes.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

[dyresand]

Rhondazvous,

Foreknowledge precludes free will when you add omnipotence.

Please justify or demonstrate the validity of this assertion. Just because I can squash you like a bug doesn't mean that I will.

If your god does not control what people do then why do you pray to him?

Your question is so astounding I'm not sure what to make of it. Can you honestly think of no other reason to pray to God than to petition Him to control other people for you?

I pray to God for healing, for guidance, for protection from harm, for forgiveness of transgressions, etc.

Why does the bible tell us to pray for our rulers if god does not in some way control what they do?

Astounding. You equate praying for someone with praying that God will control them?

I pray to God for healing, for guidance, for protection from harm, for forgiveness of transgressions, etc. on behalf of our rulers.

Even if you say god does not control everything, you have neither knowledge nor control over what god chooses to intervene.

I certainly have no control over God, and He is under no obligation to inform me about all that He is doing.

So how do you know on any given day at any given moment if what you are doing is from your free will or from god controlling you?

God never violates my free will. He never controls me.

What percent of your actions has god decided he needs to control in order to fulfill his plan?

Zero.

You seem to think that God's plan is some big, unknowable mystery. It is not. He has already told us what it is. God is establishing a family of sons and daughters who will be like-minded with Him, and suitable to share eternity with Him. Jesus was his only begotten son. The rest of us are adopted. Free will is a foundational necessity within this process. We freely choose to be adopted, or freely reject that adoption.

What use is there in pulling the doll's string and having it say its pre-programmed "I love you?" None. But having fully sentient beings freely fall in love with you, freely declare that love, and tell you they want to live with you forever, starting now - that is wondrous. That is the plan. It is unfolding before your eyes.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

Wow look at you thinking you here is the question is god all knowing yes or no you are simply dodging the question being asked. 
We came to the conclusion hell even another Theist actually agrees with my post if god exists we have no free will given the fact if he is 
all knowing.

[Ryantology]

What use is there in pulling the doll's string and having it say its pre-programmed "I love you?" None. But having fully sentient beings freely fall in love with you, freely declare that love, and tell you they want to live with you forever, starting now - that is wondrous. That is the plan. It is unfolding before your eyes.

There is a terrible punishment in store for those who don't declare that love. For many, it is necessarily a declaration made under duress. For others, it is made in the expectation of rewards.

The fact that there is a carrot and stick in this process nullifies the concept of free will. Eternal life and eternal damnation taint the process. If there was no reward for acceptance and no punishment for rejection, only then would a declaration of love be the product of a decision made by a person legitimately exercising free will.

This is one of the biggest arguments against the Christian assertion to me, that God would create beings without the capacity to make the conscious decision to love something (or not), and then expect a conscious decision from them on the pain of eternal torment. It is entirely irrational and, I think, reflects the brutality and emotional vacancy of the people who actually invented this whole tale.

[Shadow_Man]

dyresand,

Wow look at you thinking you here is the question ...

I think this is the end of a thought. I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify?

... is god all knowing yes or no you are simply dodging the question being asked.

No. I responded to your post. Within that response I answered the question. You chose not to read my answer. If you want to know the answer then just go back and read it. Or not. That is your prerogative. Either way is fine with me, but don't ignore me and then pretend that I am dodging you.

While you're there you might want to read and respond to my other statements about guilt for evil. Or not. Either way is fine with me.

We came to the conclusion ...

Who came to what conclusion?

... hell even another Theist actually agrees with my post if god exists we have no free will given the fact if he is all knowing.

Your appeal to authority is irrelevant. I'm surprised that someone who has been here as long as you have needs reminded of that.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

[Shadow_Man]

Ryantology,

The fact that there is a carrot and stick in this process nullifies the concept of free will. Eternal life and eternal damnation taint the process. If there was no reward for acceptance and no punishment for rejection, only then would a declaration of love be the product of a decision made by a person legitimately exercising free will.

The legitimate exercise of free will does not demand that all choices be equal.

Free will is only nullified if the presence of the carrot and the stick invariably produce a choice for the carrot. They do not, as is demonstrated daily throughout the world around you, and in this very forum. And yes, I am taking into account the fact that none of you believe in the Christian God. Many of you have declared time and again that you would prefer hell with Lucifer rather than Heaven with the God you despise. We are clearly well able to make up our own minds regardless of the carrot and the stick.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

[Edwardo Piet]

If determinism is true, libertarian free will cannot exist.
If indeterminism is true, libertarian free will cannot exist.

In both cases compatabilist free will can exist, but it is simply "will" being redefined as "free will", it's a silly definition that dodges the genuine question. Many philosophers go that route because it's an easy answer, a substitution for a genuine question -- and I'm not going to listen to an appeal to authority "But most philosophers are compatabilists" I don't give a fuck.

[IATIA]

Ryantology,

The fact that there is a carrot and stick in this process nullifies the concept of free will. Eternal life and eternal damnation taint the process. If there was no reward for acceptance and no punishment for rejection, only then would a declaration of love be the product of a decision made by a person legitimately exercising free will.

The legitimate exercise of free will does not demand that all choices be equal.

Free will is only nullified if the presence of the carrot and the stick invariably produce a choice for the carrot. They do not, as is demonstrated daily throughout the world around you, and in this very forum. And yes, I am taking into account the fact that none of you believe in the Christian God. Many of you have declared time and again that you would prefer hell with Lucifer rather than Heaven with the God you despise. We are clearly well able to make up our own minds regardless of the carrot and the stick.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

Your god and time travel run in the same boat.  If the future exists, then we are the past and have already made the choices.  We would be nothing but shadows playing out what has already happened.

[Shadow_Man]

IATIA,

We would be nothing but shadows playing out what has already happened.

Bolding mine.
I see what you did there. Well played.

Your god and time travel run in the same boat.  If the future exists, then we are the past and have already

made the choices.  We would be nothing but shadows playing out what has already happened.

I have already responded to this line of thinking. I'll reiterate. We already have a past. Knowing what we did yesterday does not change the free nature of our will in choosing what we did yesterday. We will think thoughts and make choices today, of our own free will. Tomorrow we will know what those thoughts and choices were. That knowledge will not suddenly make our thoughts and choices from today the only possible choices we could have made. Time is irrelevant.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

[Angrboda]

Ryantology,

The fact that there is a carrot and stick in this process nullifies the concept of free will. Eternal life and eternal damnation taint the process. If there was no reward for acceptance and no punishment for rejection, only then would a declaration of love be the product of a decision made by a person legitimately exercising free will.

The legitimate exercise of free will does not demand that all choices be equal.

Free will is only nullified if the presence of the carrot and the stick invariably produce a choice for the carrot. They do not, as is demonstrated daily throughout the world around you, and in this very forum. And yes, I am taking into account the fact that none of you believe in the Christian God. Many of you have declared time and again that you would prefer hell with Lucifer rather than Heaven with the God you despise. We are clearly well able to make up our own minds regardless of the carrot and the stick.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

Mularkey. There's a reason why decisions made under duress have lesser consequences in law than those freely made. Our ability to control the outcome is compromised by duress. The individual coercing another has usurped control. I can't imagine any greater duress than the threat of an eternal punishment. Your statement is pure poppycock.

[IATIA]

Your god and time travel run in the same boat.  If the future exists, then we are the past and have already

made the choices.  We would be nothing but shadows playing out what has already happened.

I have already responded to this line of thinking. I'll reiterate. We already have a past. Knowing what we did yesterday does not change the free nature of our will in choosing what we did yesterday. We will think thoughts and make choices today, of our own free will. Tomorrow we will know what those thoughts and choices were. That knowledge will not suddenly make our thoughts and choices from today the only possible choices we could have made. Time is irrelevant.

Regards,
Shadow_Man

Obviously you have misread. If we have free will, no one, not even your god, can know what will we do. If the future is known, then it must exist and that makes us the past. If we are the past, then we have already done everything and made every choice that we can. This 'now' us is only aware of now and our 'past' us is only aware of that past. We are not the same. Effectively, there are gazillions of us, each aware of their present 'now'.

You cannot have it both ways. Either we have free will and god does not know every choice that we will make or god does know every choice that we will make, because we have already made the choices and there is no free will.