Transexuals

[Catholic_Lady]

Also, should the requirement for transgender folks without surgical reassignment using the opposite sex bathroom/lockerroom be that they are in "full drag?" What if they're at the gym, or only had time to put on a little lipstick and padded bra that day?

Well since there are no transgender incidents of attacks in bathrooms I don't think any risk is being taken "at the expense of women".  If you can point to the overwhelming problem of strait men dressing up as women to attack real women in bathrooms please share it.

I think a "third bathroom" is unrealistic. 

If somebody isn't in "full drag" what's the problem? Don't all non-single occupant public bathrooms have stalls? Isn't there a law for that?

Yes, all bathrooms have stalls, but I can completely understand/respect a woman not feeling comfortable with a man going into the women's bathroom - stalls or not. There are mens restrooms and women's restrooms, despite the fact that they both have stalls, because even with the stalls the level of privacy isn't the same.

[abaris]

Yes, all bathrooms have stalls, but I can completely understand/respect a woman not feeling comfortable with a man going into the women's bathroom - stalls or not. There are mens restrooms and women's restrooms, despite the fact that they both have stalls, because even with the stalls the level of privacy isn't the same.

Only it's not a man. We're not talking of peeping Tom's dressed up in drag, but of people being imprisoned in the wrong body. That should always be at the forefront, though I know it isn't with all too many people.

[Catholic_Lady]

Yes, all bathrooms have stalls, but I can completely understand/respect a woman not feeling comfortable with a man going into the women's bathroom - stalls or not. There are mens restrooms and women's restrooms, despite the fact that they both have stalls, because even with the stalls the level of privacy isn't the same.

Only it's not a man. We're not talking of peeping Tom's dressed up in drag, but of people being imprisoned in the wrong body. That should always be at the forefront, though I know it isn't with all too many people.

I understand that, but I still personally would not feel comfortable with a physical man being in the same lockerroom as me while I'm changing or showering, despite the gender identity. And while I would not so much care as much about a bathroom, I can understand women who would.

[abaris]

I understand that, but I still personally would not feel comfortable with a physical man being in the same lockerroom as me while I'm changing or showering, despite the gender identity. And while I would not so much care as much about a bathroom, I can understand women who would.

Ever thought they might feel the same way, the other way round? And by the way, we're not only talking about men. I have a lose aquaintance, born as a woman, now being a man.

[Goosebump]

Now where does the person who fucks himself fit into the GLBT acronym?

Fucking yourself is for all sexualities



Oh btw... if you only fuck yourself and you're sexually attracted to yourself that is known as "autosexual."

Sounds like a setting on future Japanese sex robots.

[Catholic_Lady]

I understand that, but I still personally would not feel comfortable with a physical man being in the same lockerroom as me while I'm changing or showering, despite the gender identity. And while I would not so much care as much about a bathroom, I can understand women who would.

Ever thought they might feel the same way, the other way round?

I'm not sure it would be to the *same* extent, because even if a biological male identifies as a woman, at least he has all the same parts as the people he's changing/showering with. Also, there would be much less people feeling uncomfortable. Should a ton of women be made to feel uncomfortable for a tiny minority? But yes, I can understand it still not being completely comfortable for them and that's why I said a third bathroom until sex change would be the ideal scenario.

EDIT: I'm speaking as a woman here, but I should add vice versa.

[paulpablo]

Do I think this is the healthiest way of dealing with the disorder? I admit I'm no expert, but just from a personal common sense type perspective, it just seems to me like the healthier approach would be to treat the disorder through therapy/etc and help these people accept themselves for who they are. Rather than taking synthetic hormones and undergoing extensive surgeries to try to change.

See, I noticed this line of reasoning in Wooters' post too, this "accepting themselves as they are," thing, and I think it assumes a connection between your "proper" gender and your physical body that really doesn't need to be there. Essentially, why assume that who you "really" are is what your physical body dictates, rather than your mind? I've yet to see an answer to this, but even if one could be made, isn't there an equal argument we could make that, since the brain is also a part of the body and that brain, in transgender people, is telling them that their body doesn't match their internal model of themselves, that their bodies are suggesting a "who they really are," that doesn't match their physical sex? I mean, at most you now have two competing physiological impulses- the brain and the genitals- fit to inform who a person "really is" in this model: why on earth would you preference the genitals over the brain?

I mean, this is kind of an irrelevant line of reasoning anyway, since a proper understanding of gender (the mental state, as opposed to physical sex) puts paid to the idea that there's little actual connection between one's internal gender and one's exterior sex anyway: I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking that the transgender community are just people surgically correcting their physical sex and nobody else, because that's how the media and common understanding tends to play it, but in truth there's a far greater scale than that. There are transgender folks who don't want reassignment surgery and are okay with their genitals the way they are, genderqueer people whose gender identity fluctuates and occasionally aligns with their body, agender people who feel no particular affiliation to either gender, and so on. Examining the reality reveals a gender spectrum without even a guarantee that any given individual will have a fixed place upon it, and to suggest that, no, all of these gender identities are wrong, all of these brains are just wrong, but the penis and vagina have it perfectly right all of the time merely because that happens to align with conventional wisdom on the subject (which, notably, transgender people have not historically had much of a voice in to begin with) reeks of special pleading. Not only does it stand on a lack of understanding of the distinctions between sex and gender, which we're still only really starting to discover, but it appeals to traditional views of gender for no adequately justified reason at all.

Sorry if that sounded standoffish, CL: I know you didn't suggest a lot of this in your post, just some of your language snagged in my mind and got me off on a tear, here.

What you're dealing with when you're looking at sex, gender, male and female is just words people use to describe things.  Gender has had different definitions through the years, what makes someone male or female isn't even really that solid in scientific terms.

That obviously doesn't mean people should discard use of these words, they have their use but they just aren't so black and white as to what they mean all of the time.  Scientifically a male is a physiological sex that produces sperm, but I'd say a man who just happens to not be able to produce sperm is still a man.  I think that people should be, within reason, justified in classifying people as they observe them or have knowledge about them.
If a 6ft 4 inch man, with a jaw line like desperate Dan and hands and feet like shovels wants to use all the medical technology we have now to look more like a woman I wouldn't blame anyone for classifying this person as being a man who's had lots of surgery, but I wouldn't blame the person for calling him/herself a woman either.
Just for practical reasons I think there has to be limitations to the idea of you being who your mind says you are.  Like if someone wants to be a different gender everyday, keeping track of their ID and things like that would be a nightmare.  
I'm not trying to make fun of the idea that you are who you are in your mind I'm just saying for this philosophy to be 100% true it has to be universally true, so if someone can decide to change their gender identity once, then that about two, three or one hundred times?  And what if this person doesn't want surgery what if it just happens to be a 7 ft tall man, bald, huge muscles who just wants to change their gender identity once every half hour?

I don't necessarily believe that being a transsexual means having a psychological disorder, but I can see where CL is coming from when she's talking about being comfortable with who you are might be helped by therapy.  I know that you're talking about gender which can be defined as how someone is mentally but who you are physically is a part of who you are.

[Goosebump]

Well since there are no transgender incidents of attacks in bathrooms I don't think any risk is being taken "at the expense of women".  If you can point to the overwhelming problem of strait men dressing up as women to attack real women in bathrooms please share it.

I think a "third bathroom" is unrealistic. 

If somebody isn't in "full drag" what's the problem? Don't all non-single occupant public bathrooms have stalls? Isn't there a law for that?

Yes, all bathrooms have stalls, but I can completely understand/respect a woman not feeling comfortable with a man going into the women's bathroom - stalls or not. There are mens restrooms and women's restrooms, despite the fact that they both have stalls, because even with the stalls the level of privacy isn't the same.

So it's completely unacceptable for some women to have discomfort even with the stalls occasionally; but completely acceptable for transgender women to feel so always when going to a public restroom?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Transsexuals suffer from a diagnosable affliction called Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder. So then how is this not a mental illness if the word/term mental illness literally means:

Mental illness refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors.
(as per the Mayo clinic)

If this is a mental disorder, then why do we allow the patients to run the asylum? Why do we have mentally compromised people trying to set a national policy that allows them to indulge their disorder?

would we allow people afflicted with Munchhausen access to their kids? Or if you want to look at other people who just hurt themselves, would we allow people who want to cut themselves places they could do so?

'ABSTRACT

Introduction

The etiology of gender identity disorder (GID) remains largely unknown. In recent literature, increased attention has been attributed to possible biological factors in addition to psychological variables.

Aim

To review the current literature on case studies of twins concordant or discordant for GID.

Methods

A systematic, comprehensive literature review.

Results

Of 23 monozygotic female and male twins, nine (39.1%) were concordant for GID; in contrast, none of the 21 same‐sex dizygotic female and male twins were concordant for GID, a statistically significant difference (P = 0.005). Of the seven opposite‐sex twins, all were discordant for GID.

Conclusions

These findings suggest a role for genetic factors in the development of GID. Heylens G, De Cuypere G, Zucker KJ, Schelfaut C, Elaut E, Vanden Bossche H, De Baere E, and T'Sjoen G. Gender identity disorder in twins: A review of the case report literature. J Sex Med 2012;9:751–757.'

You're a pathetically ignorant wretch, Drich.

Boru

[Catholic_Lady]

Yes, all bathrooms have stalls, but I can completely understand/respect a woman not feeling comfortable with a man going into the women's bathroom - stalls or not. There are mens restrooms and women's restrooms, despite the fact that they both have stalls, because even with the stalls the level of privacy isn't the same.

So it's completely unacceptable for some women to have discomfort even with the stalls occasionally; but completely acceptable for transgender women to feel so always when going to a public restroom?

Again, it's a crappy situation for both parties involved, this is why suggested the option of a third bathroom as the ideal scenario. But if we're gonna talk about which situation effects the least amount of people, then I'd say there are many more women in the world than there are transgender women.