(April 12, 2016 at 12:01 pm)Divinity Wrote:(April 11, 2016 at 5:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree that unless you have a penis, you should not go into a woman's bathroom/lockerroom, and vice versa. For one, if we allow anyone to go into any bathroom/lockerromm so long as they say "I identify with this sex", this opens the doors to fakes who are sexual predators. Second, even though bathrooms wouldn't be as big of a deal for me personally, I respect that there are women who understandably are not comfortable with it. As for lockerrooms, I'm sorry but I would not feel comfortable with a man going in there while I'm in there changing/showering/etc... even if he did say he identified as female. I have no problem with a 3rd option of "gender neutral" bathroom/lockerrooms though.
I do think there is a difference between intervening when someone is upset and trying to hurt themselves, and intervening when someone has gone through therapy and has decided to go under the knife for extensive surgery. At that point I see it as them being under the care of professionals and doctors, and though I may not agree that it's the healthiest course of action, I would not feel like it is in my authority to stop it from happening.
The point where the lines may get blurred though, is when we are dealing with people who "feel" they should be blind/deaf/legless/armless/etc. There really are people out there who feel they are in the wrong body and that they should be in the body of someone who is blind, or an amputee or something. Should doctors help them out with that by blinding them? Or cutting off their legs? Obviously the answer is no. But then the question is, how is this different then, from a man who feels he should be a woman and wants to get his penis cut off? If we are being completely objective here, how is this different? I think the difference is that a person who undergoes sex change surgery is still able to function completely properly and normally with all their body parts (at least outside of the bedroom, but inside is not our business).... unlike the person who is unable to see because they had their eyes poked out by a doctor or something. Thoughts?
Here we go with the sexual assaults argument that has absolutely no merit. Areas that have allowed transgenders to use the restroom they identify with have NOT seen an increase in sexual assaults.
I think the most important argument is that there are plenty of women out there who would not feel comfortable with a physical male going into the women's bathroom/lockerroom while they are in there doing their thing. (notice I am not using the general term "transgender person" because I think this would be ok if they had a sex change. I am specifically referring to transgender folks who have not yet gone through the transition and are still physical males.) Personally, I wouldn't mind the bathroom scenario, but I would not like the lockerroom if I was in there changing or showering. I would feel uncomfortable with a physical male being present while I'm changing or showering in there as I used to do in high school and when I go to the Y for swimming. Nonetheless, I can understand and respect a woman not feeling comfortable with a physical male in the bathroom, either. Even though I personally would not have a problem with it, I'm not going to condemn or shame a woman who doesn't feel comfortable with it. And I know many of them are not.
To be clear, I never said sexual assault though. I understand the chances of someone getting raped in a bathroom or lockerroom are almost non existent. I was thinking more along the lines of a person going in there to discretely "take a peek"... because they get off on that peeping tom type scenario. I would not want to take that sort of risk to a woman's privacy, especially in lockerrooms where many of them are in open states of undress. When it comes to that sort of thing, I think it is wise to err on the side of caution.
Of course, we're going to get examples like people such as Cait Jenner who has done a lot of surgical/hormonal transformation but has not yet had a sex change. But on the other end of the spectrum we're going to get people who are still completely physically male and still look 100% like men, physically, and are just wearing a little lipstick and padded bra or something. Or perhaps, not even that if they are at the gym or at a pool or something. So I think there needs to be a line drawn somewhere.
*Should any person, even those who still look like men, be able to walk into a woman's bathroom/lockerroom while there are other women in there so long as they claim to identify as female?
*Should it be limited to people who are at least dressed femininely even if no hormonal or surgical change has been made? And if so, who gets to decide what constitutes as looking feminine enough? Is just some long hair enough? Just some lipstick and panty hoes and padded bra? Do they need to be in full drag? What if they are at the gym or the pool?
*Should there be at least some sort of hormonal/surgical change? If so, how much? Who decides?
....That's why I personally think the best place to draw the line is at complete sex change.
And again, this is not perfect. Because we're going to get people like Cait who has done a lot of change already but is not completed. But I don't think any of the above would be perfect because we're always going to get people with all different situations. To me, sex change seems like the most logical place to draw the line.
Ultimately I think the best solution to this is a private third bathroom. Someone mentioned their store only has one bathroom. Well, if it's one bathroom then I'm assuming it's unisex anyway, so no problem there. If it's a place that has one private male bathroom and one private female bathroom, I don't think that matters either since they are private, one person rooms. I think any place that can afford to make multiple stalled public bathrooms for men and for women can afford a 3rd private room. Even if that means making the others a little smaller to save space/costs. The well being of everyone involved should be the first priority.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
-walsh
![[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-d-3rfdI7nG0%2FTerwtFyFXoI%2FAAAAAAAACak%2F7kFSmHeVrng%2Fs320%2FBumper%2BSticker%2B-%2BAsheville%2B-%2BPraise%2BDog3.JPG)
