Heresy Hypothesis

[Edwardo Piet]

No because monkeys are clearly defined. We are not starting the definition of "monkey" in a circular way.

[Welsh cake]

As a body of Christians, Christians all accept the Nicene Creed. It's the one thing they agree upon.

Evangelical Christians, The Church of the New Jerusalem and the Jehovah's Witnesses don't accept it. Which Nicene Creed are you citing here? There's more than one.

[fr0d0]

We aren't considering the definition of monkey. We're considering the definition of "human" from a monkey's perspective.

Christianity is clearly defined. Not to you as a non Christian and trying to understand it from the outside, no. You, the monkey, refuse to accept what the humans tell you. Therefore the humans reasoning is circular.

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Evangelical Christians, The Church of the New Jerusalem and the Jehovah's Witnesses don't accept it. Which Nicene Creed are you citing here? There's more than one.
Wrong. Evangelical Christians accept it absolutely. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus wasn't also God, as do many other non Christian faiths. The test is simple. Do they follow the Nicene Creed (vAD381).

[Welsh cake]

We aren't considering the definition of monkey. We're considering the definition of "human" from a monkey's perspective.

Not-Monkey?

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Wrong. Evangelical Christians accept it absolutely. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus wasn't also God, as do many other non Christian faiths. The test is simple. Do they follow the Nicene Creed (vAD381).

They reject post-Apostolic statements such as the Nicene Creed.

[fr0d0]

Not-Monkey?
In this discussion the monkey calls "Human"

They reject post-Apostolic statements such as the Nicene Creed.
Who does? Proof?

[downbeatplumb]

Many people all themselves christian and do not follow the fndings of the commitee that was the council of nicea.

So chuffing what? if someone says 'i'm a christian' I do not expect them to know of the existence of the nicene creed let alone follow it.

Hell I'm sure there are millions of christians who cant read and dont know what the ten commandments are.

Frodo your definition of what makes a christian is too narrow and thats not the secular view, thats the view of the many theists you discount as christians for not following a council decision from 1600 years ago.

It is perhps relevant to you but not to many many christians.

Even Mormonism is a sort of christianity and thats a long way from protestant and catholic beliefs.

[fr0d0]

It is relevant to every single Christian DBP. They all, without exception accept the Nicene Creed cAD381.

Yes this isn't the secular view. Secularists are not Christian, and can only take their definitions from what Christians tell them.

[Welsh cake]

They reject post-Apostolic statements such as the Nicene Creed.Who does? Proof?

What sort of proof do you require? Mine is past conversations with family and friends who are devout Christians. My cousin for example, while he appreciates them as historical documents rejects all creeds because they are not from Jesus' teachings or in the Gospels of the New Testament, he regards them as hymns in a sense. I can't possibly introduce you to him, owing to the falling out we had when he finally realised I deconverted to atheism (sucks to have dogmatic divisive beliefs I know).

The problem is you present a No True Scotsman fallacy when there's no single denomination of orthodox Christianity - Christians can and often do reject the Nicene Creed for various reasons, for example, it's not Biblical Scripture. Likewise the Apostle's Creed is rejected by some on the basis of verses that state "Jesus descended into Hell".

For the same reasons when I was a Christian I rejected specific works of the Apocrypha as non-canonical text whenever they spoke or hinted of redeeming the lost sinners from hell. If you still demand proof half what we've discussed can be found on just about any Christian forum website fr0d0.

[Minimalist]

Not-Monkey?
In this discussion the monkey calls "Human"

They reject post-Apostolic statements such as the Nicene Creed.
Who does? Proof?

Actually, Frods, they do seem to be an astonishing collection of shitwits.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness3.htm

[fr0d0]

You are barking up completely the wrong tree Welsh Cake. Yes of course there are divisions within the Christian church. Yes some churches don't USE the Creeds as part of ceremony for the reasons you state... but they do acknowledge their centrality to their belief stance, and ALL Christians will acknowledge adherence to the Nicene Creed. It's what unites us, and you have yet to provide one spec of evidence to the contrary. I'm not making this up.. I'm repeating to you what the community of Christian Churches have said.

The Apocrypha is accepted by the Catholic church alone I think. This is their denominational bias, which still fits in with the Nicene Creed. I don't happen to accept it, but I am together with them in our Christian faith.

There's nothing NTS at all about any of it. The definition is extremely clear cut. Just like with humans and monkeys. JW's call themselves Christians, but then define Christianity differently to every other denomination. One of the reasons for the Nicene creed being created were the various cults which arose with spurious interpretations of Christianity, which prompted the universal church at the time to clarify what exactly constituted Christianity. Hence the definition, which still holds true today, as affirmed by every Christian Church.

A secular dictionary might encompass JW and Mormon flavour Christianity, where Jesus isn't actually God, in its definition of Christianity. And it would be correct in it's completeness. However... if you want a strict definition of the world faith of Christianity, then you need to be more accurate.