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MVC .NET Labelfor
#11
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
(May 30, 2016 at 9:22 am)Marsellus Wallace Wrote:
(May 29, 2016 at 2:14 pm)pool the great Wrote: I wouldn't know much about choices as I'm just starting out. I wouldn't really classify MVC as dreadful to work with, I wouldn't exactly call it fun fun time either but hey my idea of fun is pure C,so...

never said MVC is a bad design for web developing, MVC is everywhere now, Django, rubyonrails, PHP,..

I was talking about ASP.NET and microsoft being the dick of all time, treating it's users like slaves to it's own technology.

ASP.NET is great.  There's something about a system that is coherent out-of-the-box, coordinated with Windows, and with a high-quality development envrionment. If by "slave" you mean "guy who can put together a powerful webpage in a small amount of time, and not have to muck around with custom libraries or ill-supported IDEs, then ASP.NET definitely is a harsh slave driver. Tongue

It's the MVC I'm not sure about-- it's a cool concept, but I feel like it's still in the guinea-pig stage, where as with Web Forms I know I can do almost anything I can think of with a combination of ASP markup, C# codebehind, and javascript/jQuery for clientside. Add interfaces to your scripts, and you can also take advantage of Android built-in functionality with a pretty simple app. All-in-al, I really don't see any advantage to scorning Microsoft in favor of any other.
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#12
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
(May 30, 2016 at 12:10 pm)bennyboy Wrote:
(May 30, 2016 at 9:22 am)Marsellus Wallace Wrote: never said MVC is a bad design for web developing, MVC is everywhere now, Django, rubyonrails, PHP,..

I was talking about ASP.NET and microsoft being the dick of all time, treating it's users like slaves to it's own technology.

ASP.NET is great.  It's the MVC I'm not sure about.


in a big project, the MVC approach is the way to go, it even makes teamwork easier to achieve cuz it got it split in a very good way.
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#13
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
ASP.NET MVC is perfectly fine. I haven't used it in a few years, but it really doesn't do anything different than other MVC frameworks in other languages. In contrast, I hated web forms. The page life cycle, in particular, was idiotic. MVC is much, much simpler and elegant.

For pool, does anything from the following link work, or point you in the right direction? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11651...or-in-mvc3
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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#14
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
I never got a handle on .net. The only use I have ever had for a net was fishing and insect collecting.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#15
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
(May 30, 2016 at 1:10 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: In contrast, I hated web forms.  The page life cycle, in particular, was idiotic.  MVC is much, much simpler and elegant.

Yes, I struggled with the page life cycle, because I didn't understand it.  I can almost guarantee that any new Web Forms programmer will have some frustrations.  That being said, now that I understand how pages are built, I really can't think of any useful thing I can't do-- and very quickly. 


Example: I want to let users upload images, then record a slideshow.  I make a user control for uploading the images, using jQuery UI for sliders which I will use to scale and position the images, then I will use a C# codebehind on a button event to crop and process the uploaded image.  Now, I make a "record slideshow" control which displays each picture in turn and checks if the page is being viewed by an Android device (i.e. running my Android app which has an embedded browser).  Javascript records the times at which I change pages, synching them with the audio I'm recording.

The result: in 3 minutes, I can make a slideshow, with Audio. Time from conception to online functionality: about a day.

I don't know much about MVC, but I can almost guarantee you don't know anyone who could do that in a day. That's because design with a good web forms programmer is lightning fast. And sometimes, development speed matters.
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#16
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
Eh, it's really not that different in MVC. You work with controllers (which tend to be separated by task, so you'd have a Slideshow controller, or something like that, here) and their methods, each representing a particular task. So, your button that uploads and crops and positions? Handled by a POST method in the controller (and, yeah, you can do it asynchronously easily). Same with the record slideshow functionality (a GET method to display it, a POST method to save the recording).

If I weren't so rusty, yes, I could do it in a day. No, I'm not bragging or lying. Web forms is fast for you because you're used to it, not because the technology is superior. That's why Microsoft is pushing for MVC and has slowly moved away from web forms (even internally). No other full stack setup does it that way. I can easily go from Django to Rails to Symfony to ASP.NET MVC because the core ideas and basic setup are the same. In fact, I learned on ASP.NET MVC first, then went to Symfony. Web forms? Completely alien and weird and not standard.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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#17
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
(May 30, 2016 at 10:50 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: In fact, I learned on ASP.NET MVC first, then went to Symfony.  Web forms?  Completely alien and weird and not standard.

This seems to be the debating point for 99% of people whose comments I read (and I did take time to google this "debate").  It seems to me if you have a background in Windows Forms, then moving to web forms is going to be very comfortable for you.  If you started in almost any other environment, then MVC is probably going to be fine.

I REALLY like user controls: they are self-contained little units with their own scripts, their own business logic, their own design.  I make one that works, and I can forget about it until the next time I want to use it.  Literally: open the designer, drag the control onto the page, set its properties in the markup, and I'm done.  If you can demonstrate (even by a link) how you would do this with say an Android-integrated uploader, then I'll definitely consider MVC for my next project.
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#18
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
(May 30, 2016 at 12:14 pm)Marsellus Wallace Wrote: in a big project, the MVC approach is the way to go, it even makes teamwork easier to achieve cuz it got it split in a very good way.

At my job we've taken a different approach. We use mostly Spring REST / Hibernate on the back end, GWT for web clients. That scheme allows us to allow b business partners to produce their own front-end if they don't want to use ours. Our use cases are different than a typical web application, however.

We can split out the work at three or four different layers quite easily. I work on the REST API mostly, and most of the time I have no idea what the UI guys are up to, nor do I particularly care.

In practice it is very similar to MVC though we have made very little use of the actual Spring MVC API. B the here's always more than one way to accomplish the same goals.
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#19
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
I'm honestly not sure what you mean by 'Android integrated uploader'.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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#20
RE: MVC .NET Labelfor
Keep in mind: MVC isn't meant to be RAD-prioritized. It's nice that you can do things fast. But speed isn't the only consideration. MVC is:

Loosely coupled. The design is completely opposite from web forms. You don't start with a page than bolt stuff onto it, you start with a controller which then outputs data to a template (or straight JSON, or XML). Templates are (almost) completely separate from the back end. All they contain is display logic - outputting variable contents, with simple loops and conditionals.

This, in turn makes everything easier to maintain due to SoC.

There's no ViewState or PostBack BS to worry about, because the web is stateless at it's core.

TDD is simple to engage in because controllers are just objects.

Reuse isn't quite as easy as slowly creating a library of server controls over time, but it's OOP, and MVC is convention based, so I can just lift controllers and/or methods and slot them in with minimal tweaking. Same with templates.

So, yeah.... If I were making a quick and dirty desktop/mobile app, I might use something like web forms (win forms?) to do it. But for the web, I'd rather have MVC.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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