Fruit trees and necessity

[Ignorant]

Here is a single question posed in two different formulas:

     1) Do fruit trees make fruit according to certain conditions or not?

     2) Do certain conditions determine that fruit trees make fruit or not?

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Disingenuous equivocation detected. Sterilisation needed in-thread.
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Both questions are the same when viewed as a process acting within a larger process. Reality is that the fruit tree is a living process maintaining homoeostasis in a dynamic environment.

But phrasing them in two different ways implicitly suggests that one object is passive and the other is active.

Q1 suggests that the fruit tree is making the fruit given an environment
Q2 suggests that the environment is making the fruit appear on the tree.

Neither is correct because the fruit tree is part of its environment.

Sorry but yes this is a trap. You are trying to narrow the option down to a yes / no answer which glosses over a deeper understanding of the phenomenon.

And yes I can guess what your next step will be. No, your god did not create life. The environment of the tree is not analogous to your god.

The reason I posed the question in two formulas is EXACTLY BECAUSE the fruit making involves BOTH the "passive" response to the environment AS WELL AS the "active" influence on the environment. I was trying to capture both by posing both formulations. There is no next step. God's existence is irrelevant to the questions I pose.

[Ignorant]

Here is a single question posed in two different formulas:

     1) Do fruit trees make fruit according to certain conditions or not?

     2) Do certain conditions determine that fruit trees make fruit or not?


Choose one or both, and answer. You can explain your answer too, if you'd like. Thanks!

Are you alluding to different methods of creation; an artifact method of creation (the existence of a clay pot in relation to a potter) #2 as opposed to a natural emergence of a specific fruit set about by specific natural conditions (#1)?

I would say fruit trees don't "make" fruit, rather they "generate"  them via specific conditions .  A stark difference.

I am not alluding to anything. I am just asking as a survey of sorts.

[Ignorant]

It does what it does, what it can do, all of the according is on our end.  

Will fruit trees make fruit without water?

2 I think that this restatement exacerbates the problems of the initial formulation.

Does the presence of water determine whether or not a fruit tree will make fruit?

[Ignorant]

I'm not sure that there's a difference between (1) and (2) at all, except word order.  Could you restate?

There isn't supposed to be a difference of meaning. As someone mentioned already, each formulation emphasizes a certain aspect which the other does not.

[Minimalist]

 1) Do fruit trees make fruit according to certain conditions or not?

I don't care what conditions are applied.  An oak tree will not grow oranges.  Ever.

[Ignorant]

 1) Do fruit trees make fruit according to certain conditions or not?

I don't care what conditions are applied.  An oak tree will not grow oranges.  Ever.

HA! Great. I will put you down for a yes. =)

[The Grand Nudger]

Will fruit trees make fruit without water?

If there is no water, there are no trees in the first place.

Does the presence of water determine whether or not a fruit tree will make fruit?

No.  It's availability and amount, not it's presence, correspond to increases and decreases in average yield...both in the upper and lower ends.  Too much - lower yields.  Too little, lower yields.  Just the right amount but none of it the suitable ph or salinity, lower yields.  

Floods and droughts and poisoned tables are all expected to decrease average yields - regardless of the presence of water in two out of three examples, because all correspond with crop failures in our model.

[Ignorant]

Will fruit trees make fruit without water?

If there is no water, there are no trees in the first place.

Does the presence of water determine whether or not a fruit tree will make fruit?

No.  It's availability and amount, not it's presence, correspond to increases and decreases in average yield...both in the upper and lower ends.  Too much - lower yields.  Too little, lower yields.  Plenty but none of it the suitable ph or salinity, lower yields.  

Floods and droughts and poisoned tables are all expected to effect yields negatively, because all correspond with crop failures in our model.

Great! It is nice to know that you are so knowledgeable of fruit trees. I'll remember that for future reference. So you're a qualified "yes". Thanks!

[quip]

The reason I posed the question in two formulas is EXACTLY BECAUSE the fruit making involves BOTH the "passive" response to the environment AS WELL AS the "active" influence on the environment. I was trying to capture both by posing both formulations. There is no next step. God's existence is irrelevant to the questions I pose.

Then there is no difference between the two statements.....other than perspective.

[IATIA]

I'll bite.

Yes to both. In either case, acceptable conditions will allow the tree to fruit.