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June 21, 2016 at 6:12 pm (This post was last modified: June 21, 2016 at 7:11 pm by Losty.)
(June 21, 2016 at 4:45 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:
(June 21, 2016 at 3:22 pm)Dust_bunny Wrote: If the serotonin (independant of progesterone) was the problem then lupron wouldnt have any effect. If treating the progesterone issue with lupron adresses the serotonin issue then it's the hormone not the neurotransmitter. So I have a problem with labelling it a neurotransmitter disorder, it is not that, it is a hormone disorder. Is thyroid problem a neurotransmitter disorder too because that can cause paranoia so bad it mimics schitzophrenia. This is stigma on woman and it's not ok. It's not ok to ignore the biological female cause of illness and defer it to mental treatment. Not ok at all.
Not getting over the term sorry just because Big Pharma says I should. You post sounds like its spit straight out of a textbook written by lilly. To me this is herd mentality sorry.
All that cognitive and social theory caca you listed is why I choose not to continue in psychology. Who thinks of this shit? oh right... angry white men over 50 who write medical textboooks lol
I do think there is an allergic element in this as the P.M.D.D. effects seen in the amygdala are similar to the amygdala effects seen in allergy. I will go as far as to say there may be a heightened fear response due to an excess of anxiety related chemicals caused by the allergic reaction or maybe the inverse from possible trauma.
http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v13/n3/...2030a.html
In regards to bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy, its actually not that hard to find someone to do it once you are over 40. What is sad is that woman are forced to wait until they are over 40. Still, it is not a decision that a woman takes lightly even if she knows she doesn't want to have children. There are serious consequences to early menopause especially when the woman likely has another 10 years of eggs hanging around.
The first source discusses symptoms in patients with existing mood disorders. Do you have an existing mood disorder? Also, did you read where it did not correlate to IgE? I'll need something more credible to consider a progesterone allergy hypothesis.
Re Lupron, yes it works. Fine, go on Lupron the rest of your life. No more progesterone for your brain to react to.
Second source, so? Hormones effect areas of the brain. OMG, news flash. Do you believe that it's only female hormones? Give yourself a big dose of prednisone and see how you react.
The most accepted model says, for what ever reason, that area of the brain reacts differently to progesterone changes in some women when compared to others. You do note that they are not talking about excess hormone (as in your thyroid example). So, that area of the brain reacts differently causing symptoms. No one is ignoring the biological cause. The biological cause appears to be in the brain. It's the brain reacting different, not the ovaries. They are offering an alternative treatment to eliminating progesterone. Want removing your amygdala to be an option?
I didn't list the "caca", the source did. But of course, you know better, all that training and education. Yep only angry old white men. Sandra Bem, Leta Hollingworth, Karen Horney, Christine Ladd-Franklin, all pos.
Re surgical risk, Lupron risk, pmdd risk. Make a choice. Do a risk vs benefit analysis and choose.
After bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy, what eggs hanging around? Unless you have them some place else that I don't know about.
I replied to this but again it didnt post lol... this time I tried twice.
(June 20, 2016 at 9:07 pm)Little lunch Wrote: It is fishy that the big pharmaceutical companies would repackage Prozac as Sarafem just as it is nearing it's patent expiry date.
Umm, generic fluoextine (Prozac) has been available since 2001.
Sarafem is a different formulation (fluoextine hydrochloride). Sarafem is not Prozac.
Just because a pharmacological agent is a marketed as free base, a salt, ..... does not change the mechanism of action. Think bioavailability (primarily dissolution and absorption).
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
Just because a pharmacological agent is a marketed as free base, a salt, ..... does not change the mechanism of action. Think bioavailability (primarily dissolution and absorption).
Ok, let's asaume for the sake of argument that all if that is true. In that case, extendimg the patent may have been improper - but it in no way affected the availability of generic fluoextine. If as you say, the free base and salts are pharmacologically the same, then a hearty "so what?" is in order (excepting potential mishandling by USPTO).
(June 21, 2016 at 5:41 pm)Dust_bunny Wrote: And then we get into a whole new debate on allergy and what "allergy" actually means. I think your definition and the definition of allergy used here is old school. If you think that" allergy" refers to only IgE mediated allergies then we disagree on the terminology but I'm sure we would have to agree to disagree on it.
An excerpt...
Quote:In non-IgE-mediated allergy, the antibody may belong to the IgG isotype, as in anaphylaxis due to immune complexes containing dextran (32) and the classical, now rare, serum sickness previously referred to as a type III reaction (25), whereas both IgE and IgG antibodies are found in allergic bronchopulmonary aspergillosis (ABPA) (68). Inhalation of large amounts of protein, as in mold, grain dust, etc., stimulates the immune system to produce antibodies mainly of the IgG, IgA, and IgM isotype. The serum concentration is often high enough to allow detection of the antibody, historically termed “precipitin”, as a precipitate in gel when allowed to react with the corresponding antigen. There is a relation between degree of exposure and antibody concentration. Similarly, the presence in serum of IgA, IgM, and especially IgG antibodies, as a result of exposure but without any obvious pathogenic role, has also been reported to food antigens, such as those of cow's milk and hen's egg (39). In the same way, antigen-specific lymphocytes can often be found by using the antigen-specific lymphocyte stimulation test (50, 71). Some individuals with high IgG antibody levels as a result of chronic inhalation of large amounts of certain protein-containing material, such as Actinomyces and molds (farmer's lung) and bird droppings (pigeon breeder's disease), may exhibit symptoms from the airways, often referred to as “alveolitis”, upon exposure. We propose that the term allergic alveolitis be used for such diseases. Allergy can also be cell-mediated, as in allergic contact dermatitis, in which immunologically sensitized lymphocytes play a major role. Similar immunologic mechanisms seem to be important in celiac disease (29) and in non-IgE-associated “atopic dermatitis/eczema” (see below). Therefore, we propose that non-IgE-mediated allergic reactions be subdivided into those in which the reaction is initiated predominantly by mechanisms associated with allergen-specific antibodies other than IgE, and those in which a cellular response is predominant.
I think it's likely to be a cell mediated non IgE " reaction" " allergy" " hypersensitivity or whatever you prefer to call it.
I have however read a story once about awoman who apparently was so "allergic" to progesterone she would have anaphylaxis during pms. She did actually have to have her ovaries removed.
Your comment about the eggs... its odd that you would perceive that I was referring to post surgery not pre surgery. Was it something in the way I wrote it or the way you interpreted it? My statement refers to the idea that if mom and grandma bleed well into thier 50's there may be another 10 years of eggs hanging around in a woman in thier 40's. Thats 10 years worth of hormone protection from advanced aging that one sacrifices for happiness. You may find that the trade off for such serenity is osteoporosis... not to mention, the fires that makes one sexy like shiney hair, unwrinkled skin etc...
You cant stay on lupron for the rest of your life. It's simply used as a trial to see if you are a good candidate for getting oophed.
I think it boils down to this
Treat the neurotransmitters with antidepressants
or
Pull the plugs on the cause ( the ovaries that produce the offending hormones )
My point is that woman should have that option, long before their lives have been destroyed. But Big pharma makes much more money off option one.
Maybe they will change their stand when they use their logic to realize they can really profit off osteoporosis.
When all is said and done, the truth can always been found in the most up to date hoarded patents. I will check them out later. I will look for better links on the allergy theory as well... probably wont find much for another 5-10 years.
In regards to your comnent about thyroid issues, yes agreed, but your original definition of the ovarian hypothesis was wrong as it inferred an imbalance so my comment was in regards to your position.
It's a womans problem because it happens to woman and even if it was due to testosterone, it would still be a womans problem...
Moderator Notice If you post an excerpt, post it as a quote and give clear credit to whomever actually wrote it, otherwise it's plagairism. If you make a huge post, hide tags are your friend.
I'll wait for your allergy source. Not even contemplating your "belief". PMS anaphylaxis, source please. Or is this an anecdote?
Do you know the cost/profit associated with pre/post surgery related medications? They do profit from osteoporosis prevention medication. Look it up.
Just because a pharmacological agent is a marketed as free base, a salt, ..... does not change the mechanism of action. Think bioavailability (primarily dissolution and absorption).
Ok, let's assume for the sake of argument that all if that is true. In that case, extending the patent may have been improper - but it in no way affected the availability of generic fluoextine. If as you say, the free base and salts are pharmacologically the same, then a hearty "so what?" is in order (excepting potential mishandling by USPTO).
Have the same MOA, different bioavailability.
You got it. It's a ploy the companies use to make money from the prescribers that can't be bothered to think. Look at Wellbutrin SR and Zyban. Also happened with the proton pump inhibitors for GERD treatment.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
Sometimes the difference in branding itself is sensitive enough to make changing brand a little dangerous.
When I was on lithium, I had to keep taking the same brand because my body was used to one specific brand of lithium. Then again, it was lithium. I had to have blood tests every 3 months because of its toxicity.
I do feel like they exaggerate to protect people though. I ODed on 10 times my daily dosage, lithium is highly toxic and there was no treatment for it. It was more than enough to kill me or at least permanently poison my organs but all I did was drink water and I was fine with no organ damage or pain or anything
Give or take a molecule maybe?... Same shit really and to be honest, other antidepressants also work on P.M.D.D its just that sarafem was marketed that way.
Problem is this... when you get into your 40's, cycles become more unpredictable and because PMDD treatment is only 7-14 days per month based on your cycle, it becomes impossible to know when to start because the cycle is irregular. I doubt they thought about this.
Again...my opinion... treat the hormones not the effects of the hormones. Don't make woman out to be crazy or into abused adult children just because they have a hormone problem.
Anyway, the forum may not be policed which is awesome but the formatting issue complaints and posts not showing up etc etc are a tad annoying, and then you say I don't respond or provide evidence yet I did. But yes, i get it however learning all the formatting etc feels like way too much effort for something I'm not getting paid for lol. I dont have the same willful desire to make a point as most here... all i did was fucking ask peoples opinions lol... holy shit I'll think twice next time .
This is not university and Im not getting graded... all just a little too serious for me but on that note, their is an autoimmune condition - a type of allergy...
I figure the same way allergy was eventually understood to include systemic reactions and not just skin manifestations I suspect the same will be found about this condition too. I for example have some food allergies ( confimed by testing ) and they can make me vomit, turn green, and near loose consciousness but not a hive ever. As a matter of fact Ive had anaphalaxis three times and two of them were to allergy injections... and no hives, no urticaria were seen. Like i said, i give it 5-10 years. And considering that its being considered an "autoimmune condition" in theory, any number of symtoms could occur.
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