Speaking to theists

[ABierman1986]

Edward, I think we're running into the fundamental difficulty this thread is referring to. The last few posts have become about the understanding of atheism or a theist's belief. Like Adrian said though, atheists not approaching the implications of life without God assumes life with God would be the natural state and so there is something odd to wonder about when God is missing. But if God is not assumed to be the natural state then there is nothing to wonder about, and the problem of why we should be moral when we can't use the bible is just like saying why should we be moral if we can't use Dr. Phil.

The very question doesn't make sense in a universe where there is no divine moral code to be going against. The question is intriguing though because of the complements and contradictions between personal views on morality and the moral frameworks developed by religious texts, but in the context of anthropology and history rather than theology.

In talking to each other I think it's important to recognize the very critical difference in looking at morality and purpose and reason. Atheists aren't going against anything in the universe, there is nothing to go against. Why be moral? Why indeed! Other than the social, personal and evolutionary benefits that come from behaving in a way that does not bring harm to others (which is my personal view on morality) there is no reason I can see!

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

I'm so sick of hearing that. I've been debating atheism vs. theism for...ever I think. I've probably read more atheists manifestos than most in here. All you're saying when you say that is, "No matter what you say or think or speculate, or prove, it won't work because I'm going to keep changing my definition of atheism every time you get close to scoring a point."

And you've demonstrated a demonsterable ignorance of what atheism is. I can only assume you don't so much debate as you preach and never bother to listen to you opinions that differ from your own.

I think most atheists don't believe in Christianity. They don't like the power it has in society, and they don't like the ignorance of bible-believers who choose to "believe" rather than to "know" anything. They really don't give two hoots about Islam or Judaism, because they basically think those types are too far away and irrelevant to our culture to worry about. Buddhists they don't even think about, because basically, Western Buddhism is a more of a philosophy anyway and it's pretty atheistic when it's just a philosophy.

Oi.

No. No. No.

You're not listening. Atheists are atheists because we dont' like church or because we don't like dogma, or because we don't like being told what to do. We don't believe in god or spirituality because we believe it's a fantasy, or at least unproven assumptions based on a primative people's superstitions.
How many times do people have to tell you otherwise before you understand what we're telling you?

Atheists don't believe in god, but most atheists do not go anywhere near the implications of that. Most atheists only think about not believing in religious gods, they don't ponder what a world of chaos and natural selection really means. Some do, but most don't. Most atheists are very hypocritical: they hate the church but abide by all the precepts of its moral code. They think the same moral code would exist in an atheist world.

We don't ponder what religious folks think about 'naturalism' and 'morality' because their view of it is wrong, as are the utterly religious views of a 'secular' beginning of the universe, evolution, morality, and virtually all science and math.
We also understand what it is to not truely know or understand something and accept these things.
You can keep ignoring my and other's reponses, but the truth of these matters is not up to you. You've already proven numberous times that you're unwilling to listen to opinions other than your own and you're not willing to engage in debates with anyone who doesn't agree to your terms (which you restrict only to confirm your erroneous beliefs on atheism and science.)

Most atheists are not any more immoral than anyone else, but they aren't any better either. They get through their day without having to worry about the meaning of their life, and they feel a bit more superior than most because they know that most of the people around them are theists of the Christian sort. That's how they keep their self-esteem up. The geek-chic glasses just seem to help with that.

Right, atheists are as moral as religious people. That's why there are few, if any atheists in prison.
Yes, that's a real statistic. We're more than 13% of the total population and just over 1/5th of one percent of the prison population.
http://www.atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Whatever need you have for a creator is good for you, but most if not all atheists have no such need for a creator to explain the way morals, ethics, and everything else is the way it is and how it can get better.
The society you enjoy so much was built on good science, not faith.