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A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
#11
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
Great article as usual. I think I would disagree with "...., while those who believe in God do so despite what they do not know. " And I think it's as misleading as Enns statement.
I also find it problematic when you say ".. if I listen to your claim of a god, examine the evidence, and refuse to accept the claim, .." and then say "... They have no evidence and believe because they want to, were raised to, claim to feel God, etc…" Seems a bit biased and contradictory, but all in all wonderful as usual.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#12
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
Good article. It just goes to show that other magazines, like the Huffington Post, will print something that's blatantly a load of rubbish.
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#13
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
(August 27, 2010 at 1:43 am)tackattack Wrote: Great article as usual. I think I would disagree with "...., while those who believe in God do so despite what they do not know. " And I think it's as misleading as Enns statement.

Well that's what I see faith is. An admission that you don't have proof but believe anyway. Although, I can understand the objection.

(August 27, 2010 at 1:43 am)tackattack Wrote: I also find it problematic when you say ".. if I listen to your claim of a god, examine the evidence, and refuse to accept the claim, .." and then say "... They have no evidence and believe because they want to, were raised to, claim to feel God, etc…" Seems a bit biased and contradictory, but all in all wonderful as usual.

I should have made it clear on what types of evidence. I feel like religion has no evidence because what they call evidence I don't call evidence. An example would be personal experience. I don't accept anecdotes as evidence for god because I have no independent way of examining someone's story, but the person it happened to may consider it evidence.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

::Blogs:: Boston Atheism Examiner - Boston Atheists Blog | :Tongueodcast:: Boston Atheists Report
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#14
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-bosto...-of-belief

The sequel. Smile
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

::Blogs:: Boston Atheism Examiner - Boston Atheists Blog | :Tongueodcast:: Boston Atheists Report
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#15
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
Another good, and concise, article. A small point: it should be 'role', or maybe 'rôle', if you're being pedantic. 'Roll' is something you eat. Smile
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken

'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.

'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain

'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
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#16
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
(August 27, 2010 at 4:14 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: Another good, and concise, article. A small point: it should be 'role', or maybe 'rôle', if you're being pedantic. 'Roll' is something you eat. Smile

I'mma have to kick my editor!
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

::Blogs:: Boston Atheism Examiner - Boston Atheists Blog | :Tongueodcast:: Boston Atheists Report
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#17
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
Agreed. Great work, Ely. I often find myself having to explain why, if I don't believe in 'god', do I talk about religion so much. Unfortunately, most 'theists' don't believe it when they are told how socially pervasive their religion is, nor how oppressive that makes society for the non-believers.
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#18
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
Excellent article.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#19
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
It is a very common theist argument to compare an atheist’s lack of belief with a theist’s belief in God. The tactic is meant to make faith look just as reasonable as atheism. It is also used to claim that atheists are just believers too, and, therefore, pretend that what an atheist actually does say about God is no different than what a believer says.

It's not an attempt to make faith look just as reasonable as atheism. It's to make the point that atheism is faith.



The truth is that belief and lack of belief are two very different things and two very different positions to have on a claim. When you believe in something, you are affirming that the claim is also true. However, when you lack a belief you are not affirming that claim to also be false, but simply stating that you do not accept the claim as posited by those who believe it. This is the difference between holding a positive and negative position.

Actually if you lack a belief in A, it is as a result of having an active belief in B, where B precludes A. Your belief in B causes you to rule out A, since A goes against B. Nature abhors a vacuum. When you believe in something you are most certainly not necessarily also claiming that it is true. A simple everyday example : I believe it will be sunny tomorrow, but I wouldn't bet my life savings on it. I believe that I'm sat here in front of my computer, and I would bet my life savings on that. Belief =/=claim.



A positive position makes a claim and states it is true. A negative position simply does not accept that claim until it has met its burden of proof. If I were to claim that no gods exist, I would be making a positive claim and would need to then provide evidence to meet my burden of proof. However, if I listen to your claim of a god, examine the evidence, and refuse to accept the claim, I have not stated that no god or gods exist, but that I do not accept your claim of God to be true. This is the position I take and, as a result, I lack a belief.

Nope, see above. Despite what you choose or don't choose to verbalise and put "on the record", you will always have a natural inclination one way or the other.



An article on the Huffington Post by Pete Enns, Ph.D. attempts to make the claim that atheists are believers too. He attempts to argue that any form of belief makes you a believer. It is very true that atheists do have beliefs, and everyone believes in many different things independent of the god question. However, when it comes to god, we lack a belief and, therefore, in regards to that one question, we are not believers. It is possible to find one who asserts there are no gods, and firmly believe that to be true, but most atheists take the intellectually honest position of agnostic atheism. To be an agnostic atheist is to not know and to not believe.

You are not believers. Not in god anyway. Perhaps a few atheists are honest and openly state that they believe "no god scenario" to be true, but most atheists deliberately choose not to openly state it. They choose instead to hide behind the term "agnostic atheist". You're either an atheist who believes that there is no god, or you're not.



Enns argues that, “For both the religious and atheists, there is mystery. Atheists are free to be atheists, but they don't know any more than anyone else.” While this is essentially a true statement, it is misleading. Those who are religious rely on faith to believe in God. They have no evidence and believe because they want to, were raised to, claim to feel God, etc… Those who are atheists recognize that the claims of the religious have not met the burden of proof and, therefore, choose not to believe. Atheists accept the fact that they do not know to take a skeptically appropriate stance on the question of God, while those who believe in God do so despite what they do not know.

But you do have a belief regarding god, see above.



This explanation typically leads to another question. If atheists lack a belief in something, why constantly argue about it? Why debate the point so much? Those who don’t believe in unicorns do not dedicate so much of their time to debate why unicorns are not true. That question will be answered in my next article in the series, “A Question of Belief”, a series dedicated to misconceptions about atheists and what they do and do not believe.

I actively believe that will be an interesting read. Do you? Oh sorry I forgot, you're agnostic too.
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#20
RE: A Question of Belief: Are atheists believers too?
I used to not care what crap people believed in then religious nutters started flying planes into buildings.
That woke me from my complacent stupor and made me re-evaluate how I viewed religion.
The more I saw the less I liked.
There is not one thing religion does that I like.




You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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