"Declared Clinically Dead"

[Thumpalumpacus]

All this information ... it's just too much to absorb ...

[chimp3]

Wrong. In terms of CPR . having no heartbeat is called a cardiac arrest. The concept of clinical death is not part of the equation. CPR is a life saving effort not a life restoration effort. "Clinical death" is a concept that those justifying the hallucinatory process called an NDE use to embellish the stories.

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Hallucinations are common in the healthcare setting. People having surgeries , trauma, etc. often have visual and auditory hallucinations. Delusions are common too. Side effects of medications, metabolic imbalances, hypoxia are the usual explanations. I have cared for many people who see snakes, bugs on the wall, kids making mischief, etc. My own brother-in-law had a long drawn out conversation with me on politics, the Nixon era, and I never visited him. One woman was pointing at the ceiling talking about all the colorful fish swimming up there. I usually look to make sure there are not real snakes or bugs and then just document the symptoms and make sure the MD is aware. There is no reason to believe an NDE is any different.

Ok.... you seem to disagree, with the majority of definitions of clinically dead, that are found online.  What is your definition of clinically dead or what is the distinction that I am missing?  Wikipedia even goes on to explain, some of the history of why the term was created:

Stopped blood circulation has historically proven irreversible in most cases. Prior to the invention of cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), defibrillation, epinephrine injection, and other treatments in the 20th century, the absence of blood circulation (and vital functions related to blood circulation) was historically considered the official definition of death. With the advent of these strategies, cardiac arrest came to be called clinical death rather than simply death, to reflect the possibility of post-arrest resuscitation.

So while you act like everyone who uses the term in this way are all idiots..... how are you saying the term should be defined, and do you have any support for that definition.   I would encourage people to search for the meaning of clinical death here.

What you are missing is that at no point in the rescue procedure is "declared clinically dead" a consideration.

[RoadRunner79]

So while you act like everyone who uses the term in this way are all idiots..... how are you saying the term should be defined, and do you have any support for that definition.   I would encourage people to search for the meaning of clinical death here.

The problem here is a conflation between something called "death" with actual death.  In your case, it seems to be deliberate-- to show that there's mental experience after death.  However, the clinical death we are talking about is not in fact death-- it's a near-death or death-like state.

And yet, I have made no arguments towards anything other, than the definition of clinical death.   You say that the conflation seems deliberate on my part, and that I am trying to show something other than what I have said.   This always seems to be a big problem here, and I think is an impediment to any logical or systematic discussion.   The steps and individual arguments aren't considered as much as assumptions against the overall view.  

But for your information, I am quite skeptical of NDE accounts as a whole, but I think there are better arguments, than trying to change the definitions of words and phrases to suit one's view.

As to conflating terms or trying to pull any type of bait in switch I don't think that seeing how you described it as near death and given what the acronym NDE stands for, that they are being very sly here.

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Ok.... you seem to disagree, with the majority of definitions of clinically dead, that are found online.  What is your definition of clinically dead or what is the distinction that I am missing?  Wikipedia even goes on to explain, some of the history of why the term was created:


So while you act like everyone who uses the term in this way are all idiots..... how are you saying the term should be defined, and do you have any support for that definition.   I would encourage people to search for the meaning of clinical death here.

What you are missing is that at no point in the rescue procedure is "declared clinically dead" a consideration.

Are they declared to not have cardiac or respiratory activity..... no pupil response?   Again, I would ask, what your definition of "clinically dead" is?

[chimp3]

The problem here is a conflation between something called "death" with actual death.  In your case, it seems to be deliberate-- to show that there's mental experience after death.  However, the clinical death we are talking about is not in fact death-- it's a near-death or death-like state.

And yet, I have made no arguments towards anything other, than the definition of clinical death.   You say that the conflation seems deliberate on my part, and that I am trying to show something other than what I have said.   This always seems to be a big problem here, and I think is an impediment to any logical or systematic discussion.   The steps and individual arguments aren't considered as much as assumptions against the overall view.  

But for your information, I am quite skeptical of NDE accounts as a whole, but I think there are better arguments, than trying to change the definitions of words and phrases to suit one's view.

As to conflating terms or trying to pull any type of bait in switch I don't think that seeing how you described it as near death and given what the acronym NDE stands for, that they are being very sly here.

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What you are missing is that at no point in the rescue procedure is "declared clinically dead" a consideration.

Are they declared to not have cardiac or respiratory activity..... no pupil response?   Again, I would ask, what your definition of "clinically dead" is?

I know what the dictiolnary definition of clinical death is. In 25 years working in the clinical setting I have never seen the term used. That is my point.

[RoadRunner79]

And yet, I have made no arguments towards anything other, than the definition of clinical death.   You say that the conflation seems deliberate on my part, and that I am trying to show something other than what I have said.   This always seems to be a big problem here, and I think is an impediment to any logical or systematic discussion.   The steps and individual arguments aren't considered as much as assumptions against the overall view.  

But for your information, I am quite skeptical of NDE accounts as a whole, but I think there are better arguments, than trying to change the definitions of words and phrases to suit one's view.

As to conflating terms or trying to pull any type of bait in switch I don't think that seeing how you described it as near death and given what the acronym NDE stands for, that they are being very sly here.

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Are they declared to not have cardiac or respiratory activity..... no pupil response?   Again, I would ask, what your definition of "clinically dead" is?

I know what the dictiolnary definition of clinical death is. In 25 years working in the clinical setting I have never seen the term used. That is my point.

Ok.... that seems scaled back a bit from the previous discussion. However I still don't think that it is a very good arguement, particularly because, it could be limited to your experience and locale. Where I have heard that term used, (not pertaining t NDE's) is when the person was clinically dead for an extraordinary amount of time, and then revived. But overall I haven't noticed anyone grossly mis-using he term, which would justify insults, and telling them to get an education.