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February 3, 2017 at 10:47 am (This post was last modified: February 3, 2017 at 10:50 am by RoadRunner79.)
(January 21, 2017 at 11:22 am)chimp3 Wrote: This phrase always amuses me when reading accounts of "near death experiences". The subject is always declared clinically dead and yet is receiving resuscitation. That is not what happens. During a CPR/ defibrillation procedure a series of rescue breathing/ chest compressions , checking the heart rhythm to see if defibrillation is needed, and drugs are given. This can go on for quite awhile. Then when the Doctor says "Stop!" that's it. The time is noted and now the patient is declared dead. The death certificate for example will note "Time of death 14:22" . At no time before the resuscitation is the person declared dead. If you don't believe it , get a degree in medicine or nursing and see for yourself.
I'm certainly not an expert in biology, but from a quick search, clinical death means that there is no pulse, no respiratory movement, and no corneal reflex. It would seem that if you are responsibly doing CPR with artificial ventilation required, that two of the three requirements should be met; with the third following shortly after (apart from external resuscitation efforts)....correct?
It doesn't seem all that inappropriate to label clinical death, as a "near death experience" (if there brain is no longer receiving oxygen and functioning). Also, I would hope, that the patient would be dead, prior to, a responsible doctor declaring them dead (Note again however... I'm not claiming to be an expert here). But then again, I see the paperwork (and declaration of death) as being descriptive, not prescriptive. I can understand that from a procedural standpoint; of not treating a patient as dead, until a qualified medical personnel has examined them and determined that they are dead (to the point that resuscitation is no longer viable).
If you are making the distinction that clinical death, does not equal biological death...ok However if you are saying that clinical death does not happen before the declaration of death (or resuscitation efforts) then I would ask you to please clarify. I also have an issue with death being dependent on a doctor saying "Stop!", making any declarations, or the paperwork. I don't think this is necessary (concerning actual death, not from a procedural standpoint). I don't have a degree in medicine or nursing; and I'm open to correction with an explanation from an expert.
(February 3, 2017 at 7:43 am)Huggy74 Wrote: I don't think anyone has claimed that was the case...
You're still not being clear.
What is your stance on NDEs that occur after rescue measures have failed and the patient declared dead?
No NDE reveals any truth about an afterlife. I place them all into the general category of hallucinations if not outright lies. No one has convinced me otherwise.
I do not have linking ability right now but I am reading Elizabeth Taylor's NDE account. She says she was clinically dead, rescusitated, and saw her death notice hung on the wall. Been a nurse for 25 years. Never saw a death certificate hung on a wall. I have filled out scores of them. They stay behind the desk with all the other paperwork.
Oh, so basically you're generalizing all NDEs based on one account...
A doctor can only declare someone "dead" by their own personal judgement, or by a set of criteria. They can't see the future, or predict extremely unusual occurrences.
So being "declared dead", by whatever means, does not magically make you "actually dead". Doctors aren't that powerful. And clearly, if you have come back to life, you weren't permanently dead.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(January 21, 2017 at 11:22 am)chimp3 Wrote: This phrase always amuses me when reading accounts of "near death experiences". The subject is always declared clinically dead and yet is receiving resuscitation. That is not what happens. During a CPR/ defibrillation procedure a series of rescue breathing/ chest compressions , checking the heart rhythm to see if defibrillation is needed, and drugs are given. This can go on for quite awhile. Then when the Doctor says "Stop!" that's it. The time is noted and now the patient is declared dead. The death certificate for example will note "Time of death 14:22" . At no time before the resuscitation is the person declared dead. If you don't believe it , get a degree in medicine or nursing and see for yourself.
I'm certainly not an expert in biology, but from a quick search, clinical death means that there is no pulse, no respiratory movement, and no corneal reflex. It would seem that if you are responsibly doing CPR with artificial ventilation required, that two of the three requirements should be met; with the third following shortly after (apart from external resuscitation efforts)....correct?
It doesn't seem all that inappropriate to label clinical death, as a "near death experience" (if there brain is no longer receiving oxygen and functioning). Also, I would hope, that the patient would be dead, prior to, a responsible doctor declaring them dead (Note again however... I'm not claiming to be an expert here). But then again, I see the paperwork (and declaration of death) as being descriptive, not prescriptive. I can understand that from a procedural standpoint; of not treating a patient as dead, until a qualified medical personnel has examined them and determined that they are dead (to the point that resuscitation is no longer viable).
If you are making the distinction that clinical death, does not equal biological death...ok However if you are saying that clinical death does not happen before the declaration of death (or resuscitation efforts) then I would ask you to please clarify. I also have an issue with death being dependent on a doctor saying "Stop!", making any declarations, or the paperwork. I don't think this is necessary (concerning actual death, not from a procedural standpoint). I don't have a degree in medicine or nursing; and I'm open to correction with an explanation from an expert.
No! If you initiate CPR you do not assume anyone is dead. That is why it is called resuscitation. You are trying to save a life! As in "Rescue'! As in "Save"! Not as in "Resurrect"! Not as in "Return from the Underworld". More like "Hellp! He is not breathing! Save him!"
Have not any of you NDE promoting theotards ever taken a basic CPR class? It does not require a degree. Many fire stations offer CPR free to the public.
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!
I'm certainly not an expert in biology, but from a quick search, clinical death means that there is no pulse, no respiratory movement, and no corneal reflex. It would seem that if you are responsibly doing CPR with artificial ventilation required, that two of the three requirements should be met; with the third following shortly after (apart from external resuscitation efforts)....correct?
It doesn't seem all that inappropriate to label clinical death, as a "near death experience" (if there brain is no longer receiving oxygen and functioning). Also, I would hope, that the patient would be dead, prior to, a responsible doctor declaring them dead (Note again however... I'm not claiming to be an expert here). But then again, I see the paperwork (and declaration of death) as being descriptive, not prescriptive. I can understand that from a procedural standpoint; of not treating a patient as dead, until a qualified medical personnel has examined them and determined that they are dead (to the point that resuscitation is no longer viable).
If you are making the distinction that clinical death, does not equal biological death...ok However if you are saying that clinical death does not happen before the declaration of death (or resuscitation efforts) then I would ask you to please clarify. I also have an issue with death being dependent on a doctor saying "Stop!", making any declarations, or the paperwork. I don't think this is necessary (concerning actual death, not from a procedural standpoint). I don't have a degree in medicine or nursing; and I'm open to correction with an explanation from an expert.
No! If you initiate CPR you do not assume anyone is dead. That is why it is called resuscitation. You are trying to save a life! As in "Rescue'! As in "Save"! Not as in "Resurrect"! Not as in "Return from the Underworld". More like "Hellp! He is not breathing! Save him!"
Have not any of you NDE promoting theotards ever taken a basic CPR class? It does not require a degree. Many fire stations offer CPR free to the public.
I have taken CPR classes both in high school and subsequently at work. It was my understanding from these classes, that CPR was started, because the subjects heart wasn't beating, and external ventilation when they where not breathing. Was this incorrect?
This is 2/3 of the criteria for the definition of clinical death. The third is lack of pupillary response. Again it is my understanding that within minutes of the brain not receiving oxygen, that the autonomic nervous systems will cease functioning. This doesn't mean, that they cannot be resussitated, but they are clinically dead, if these three conditions are present.
February 5, 2017 at 10:47 am (This post was last modified: February 5, 2017 at 11:00 am by chimp3.)
(February 4, 2017 at 6:59 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(February 4, 2017 at 1:01 am)chimp3 Wrote: No! If you initiate CPR you do not assume anyone is dead. That is why it is called resuscitation. You are trying to save a life! As in "Rescue'! As in "Save"! Not as in "Resurrect"! Not as in "Return from the Underworld". More like "Hellp! He is not breathing! Save him!"
Have not any of you NDE promoting theotards ever taken a basic CPR class? It does not require a degree. Many fire stations offer CPR free to the public.
I have taken CPR classes both in high school and subsequently at work. It was my understanding from these classes, that CPR was started, because the subjects heart wasn't beating, and external ventilation when they where not breathing. Was this incorrect?
This is 2/3 of the criteria for the definition of clinical death. The third is lack of pupillary response. Again it is my understanding that within minutes of the brain not receiving oxygen, that the autonomic nervous systems will cease functioning. This doesn't mean, that they cannot be resussitated, but they are clinically dead, if these three conditions are present.
Wrong. In terms of CPR . having no heartbeat is called a cardiac arrest. The concept of clinical death is not part of the equation. CPR is a life saving effort not a life restoration effort. "Clinical death" is a concept that those justifying the hallucinatory process called an NDE use to embellish the stories.
Hallucinations are common in the healthcare setting. People having surgeries , trauma, etc. often have visual and auditory hallucinations. Delusions are common too. Side effects of medications, metabolic imbalances, hypoxia are the usual explanations. I have cared for many people who see snakes, bugs on the wall, kids making mischief, etc. My own brother-in-law had a long drawn out conversation with me on politics, the Nixon era, and I never visited him. One woman was pointing at the ceiling talking about all the colorful fish swimming up there. I usually look to make sure there are not real snakes or bugs and then just document the symptoms and make sure the MD is aware. There is no reason to believe an NDE is any different.
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!
(February 4, 2017 at 6:59 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I have taken CPR classes both in high school and subsequently at work. It was my understanding from these classes, that CPR was started, because the subjects heart wasn't beating, and external ventilation when they where not breathing. Was this incorrect?
This is 2/3 of the criteria for the definition of clinical death. The third is lack of pupillary response. Again it is my understanding that within minutes of the brain not receiving oxygen, that the autonomic nervous systems will cease functioning. This doesn't mean, that they cannot be resussitated, but they are clinically dead, if these three conditions are present.
Wrong. In terms of CPR . having no heartbeat is called a cardiac arrest. The concept of clinical death is not part of the equation. CPR is a life saving effort not a life restoration effort. "Clinical death" is a concept that those justifying the hallucinatory process called an NDE use to embellish the stories.
Hallucinations are common in the healthcare setting. People having surgeries , trauma, etc. often have visual and auditory hallucinations. Delusions are common too. Side effects of medications, metabolic imbalances, hypoxia are the usual explanations. I have cared for many people who see snakes, bugs on the wall, kids making mischief, etc. My own brother-in-law had a long drawn out conversation with me on politics, the Nixon era, and I never visited him. One woman was pointing at the ceiling talking about all the colorful fish swimming up there. I usually look to make sure there are not real snakes or bugs and then just document the symptoms and make sure the MD is aware. There is no reason to believe an NDE is any different.
Ok.... you seem to disagree, with the majority of definitions of clinically dead, that are found online. What is your definition of clinically dead or what is the distinction that I am missing? Wikipedia even goes on to explain, some of the history of why the term was created:
Quote:Stopped blood circulation has historically proven irreversible in most cases. Prior to the invention of cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), defibrillation, epinephrine injection, and other treatments in the 20th century, the absence of blood circulation (and vital functions related to blood circulation) was historically considered the official definition of death. With the advent of these strategies, cardiac arrest came to be called clinical death rather than simply death, to reflect the possibility of post-arrest resuscitation.
So while you act like everyone who uses the term in this way are all idiots..... how are you saying the term should be defined, and do you have any support for that definition. I would encourage people to search for the meaning of clinical death here.
February 5, 2017 at 6:33 pm (This post was last modified: February 5, 2017 at 6:38 pm by bennyboy.)
(February 3, 2017 at 2:48 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(February 3, 2017 at 1:46 pm)robvalue Wrote: And clearly, if you have come back to life, you weren't permanently dead.
Obviously.
Also I think Doctors have a pretty good grasp on how to determine death.
Well. . .
I think it's still possible to make mistakes. If someone's not breathing, no heartbeat, no measurable brain activity, then they're pretty much dead. However, in some very special circumstances (or at least so I've heard) people have been resuscitated because for example a very low body temperature lowered the metabolism or whatever.
(February 5, 2017 at 12:24 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
Quote:Stopped blood circulation has historically proven irreversible in most cases. Prior to the invention of cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), defibrillation, epinephrine injection, and other treatments in the 20th century, the absence of blood circulation (and vital functions related to blood circulation) was historically considered the official definition of death. With the advent of these strategies, cardiac arrest came to be called clinical death rather than simply death, to reflect the possibility of post-arrest resuscitation.
So while you act like everyone who uses the term in this way are all idiots..... how are you saying the term should be defined, and do you have any support for that definition. I would encourage people to search for the meaning of clinical death here.
The problem here is a conflation between something called "death" with actual death. In your case, it seems to be deliberate-- to show that there's mental experience after death. However, the clinical death we are talking about is not in fact death-- it's a near-death or death-like state.
The fact is that whatever you call it, those who come back to report mysterious near-death experiences were all in very good physical shape with regards to death-- their brains had not rotted away or been incinerated, for example. Most dead people do NOT have brains capable of functioning again under any circumstances.
So if someone believes mind to be brain function, then playing with the definition of death isn't very useful, since it does nothing to dissuade them from that position.
