What's to the right of fascist?

[Tiberius]

I never heard of this and my country is socialistm, i think you're confusing socialism with communism

From Wikipedia:

"Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources." (bolding mine)

A lot of countries that claim to be socialist aren't in the true sense of the word, just as a lot of countries that claim to be capitalist aren't in the true sense of the world. Most countries are a mixture of both, with a tilt to either one side or the other.

Firstly, I wasn't talking about socialism. I was pointing out the flaws of capitalism.

Yes...and I pointed out that this was no different in socialism. You then said "try again", which I took to mean you disagreeing with me, hence me explaining my position.

You're sounding remarkably religious right now. Just like all other theists must learn, simply because you can poke holes in another person's idea that does not automatically make your own better.

Nor did I claim it did. Your argument is a strawman. I was actually defending part of socialism in my post if you hadn't noticed, saying that it too understands that you need a surplus of goods. There is no efficient system that can predict the market forces; not under socialism, not under capitalism. The best system we have is to make more than we might need, in order to meet the initial demand, and then to manufacture more based on how well the product initially sold.

I succeeded in making you expand your point.

Yeah, by making a snarky comment. Nothing to be proud of really.

The only thing you've logically proven is that a socialistic system does not preclude frivolous manufacturing. However, I am right that socialism is the only system which could theoretically permit the government to specify what manufacturers produce. Therefore, a socialistic system such as what I'm talking about is better than a capitalistic system if you want to reduce waste by means of standardization.

No, you are wrong. Socialism isn't the *only* system that could do such a thing. Regulated capitalism could do exactly the same, through various methods: taxing corporations for the waste they use, enacting anti-competitive laws, etc.

Indeed, in a theoretical consumer-oriented capitalist society, the same behaviour would come about via private lobbying groups representing the consumers. If respect for the environment is established as a attractive position for a company, then that company will strive to meet with consumer demands for environmental action.

[lrh9]

You're arguing against something else. I was talking about a specific method that a capitalist system could never have else it would no longer be defined as capitalist. There is no government telling manufacturers what to produce in capitalism. Only socialism.

[Ashendant]

No, you are wrong. Socialism isn't the *only* system that could do such a thing. Regulated capitalism could do exactly the same, through various methods: taxing corporations for the waste they use, enacting anti-competitive laws, etc.

Indeed, in a theoretical consumer-oriented capitalist society, the same behaviour would come about via private lobbying groups representing the consumers. If respect for the environment is established as a attractive position for a company, then that company will strive to meet with consumer demands for environmental action.

But then that wouldn't be regulated socialism but socialism with capitalistic tendencies, and yes true capitalism is impossible has much has true communism and true socialism, and what you're describing is true capitalism, in true capitalism companies compete to have the greatest products sold, however true capitalism is impossible, in this corrupted version of extreme capitalism america has companies compete for profit and that's all they ever care.

[Tiberius]

Right, but how is that related to your initial point about companies producing millions of cheap flashlights? I was led to believe that your concern wasn't so much in the product, but the amount of the product, namely because you mentioned that this was done so that people could pick the colour, and also:

"I'd rather not have to clean that shit up from the land of my country."

You then went on to talk about stock; understocking, and overstocking.

So what are we talking about here? The actual product itself, or the stock of the product? There is a difference. I do not deny that under capitalism, a government has no control over the type of product a company can produce (unless it was illegal, etc), but under both socialism and capitalism, control over the amount of stock of a product is still based on the market.

[Tiberius]

In true capitalism companies compete to have the greatest products sold, however true capitalism is impossible, in this corrupted version of extreme capitalism america has companies compete for profit and that's all they ever care.

True capitalism is not impossible. All it involves is the state not having a control over the market, which is how original markets worked.

If you honestly think that profit is the only concern of companies under capitalism, then you need to read up on the subject a bit more. Companies have the concerns of their consumers and shareholders to respond to. A company that ignores either is a doomed one.

There is a reason a lot of companies go above and beyond what the state asks of them in terms of environmental issues, and it is all down to the image the company wants to uphold. If the consumers in your market will buy more from companies that are "green", then it is in your best interest to be "green".

[Entropist]

I personally love how people hate the government and everything they do but they also love things like clean air, fair prices, decent healthcare, and fair wages and work laws.
I'd love to see a libertarian's heaven with an absolutely minimum government intervention. That hypothetical country would collapse into a third world country in moments. Instead of a government totalitarianism, you would just have an autocracy with the richest individuals ruling over those without.

The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge

I, ________________________________, do solemnly swear to uphold the principles of a socialism-free society and heretofore pledge my word that I shall strictly adhere to the following:

I will complain about the destruction of 1st Amendment Rights in this country, while I am duly being allowed to exercise my 1st Amendment Rights.

I will complain about the destruction of my 2nd Amendment Rights in this country, while I am duly >being allowed to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights by legally but brazenly brandishing unconcealed firearms in public.

I will foreswear the time-honored principles of fairness, decency, and respect by screaming unintelligible platitudes regarding tyranny, Nazi-ism, and socialism at public town halls. Also.

I pledge to eliminate all government intervention in my life. I will abstain from the use of and participation in any socialist goods and services including but not limited to the following:

Social Security
Medicare/Medicaid
State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
US Postal Service
Roads and Highways
Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
The US Railway System
Public Subways and Metro Systems
Public Bus and Lightrail Systems
Rest Areas on Highways
Sidewalks
All Government-Funded Local/State Projects
Public Water and Sewer Services
Public and State Universities and Colleges
Public Primary and Secondary Schools
Sesame Street
Publicly Funded Anti-Drug Use Education for Children
Public Museums
Libraries
Public Parksand Beaches
State and National Parks
Public Zoos
Unemployment Insurance
Municipal Garbage and Recycling Services
Treatment at Any Hospital or Clinic That Ever Received Funding From Local, Stateor Federal Government (pretty much all of them)
Medical Services and Medications That Were Created or Derived From Any Government Grant or Research Funding (again, pretty much all of them)
Socialist Byproducts of Government Investment Such as Duct Tape and Velcro
Use of the Internets, email, and networked computers, as the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for subsequent computer networking
Foodstuffs, Meats, Produce and Crops That Were Grown With, Fed With, Raised With or That Contain Inputs From Crops Grown With Government Subsidies
Clothing Made from Crops (e.g. cotton) That Were Grown With or That Contain Inputs From Government Subsidies

If a veteran of the government-run socialist US military, I will forego my VA benefits and insist on paying for my own medical care

I will not tour socialist government buildings like the Capitol in Washington, D.C.

I pledge to never take myself, my family, or my children on a tour of the following types of socialist locations, including but not limited to:

Smithsonian Museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History
The socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments
The government-operated Statue of Liberty
The Grand Canyon
The socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorials
The government-run socialist-propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery
All other public-funded socialist sites, whether it be in my state or in Washington, DC

I will urge my Member of Congress and Senators to forego their government salary and government-provided healthcare.

I will oppose and condemn the government-funded and therefore socialist military of the United States of America.

I will boycott the products of socialist defense contractors such as GE, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Humana, FedEx, General Motors, Honeywell, and hundreds of others that are paid by our socialist government to produce goods for our socialist army.

I will protest socialist security departments such as the Pentagon, FBI, CIA, Department of Homeland Security, TSA, Department of Justice and their socialist employees.

Upon reaching eligible retirement age, I will tear up my socialist Social Security checks.

Upon reaching age 65, I will forego Medicare and pay for my own private health insurance until I die.

SWORN ON A BIBLE AND SIGNED THIS DAY OF ____________ IN THE YEAR ______________.

___________________________ ___________________________

Signed Printed Name/Town and State

[lrh9]

We're talking about a lot of different things. This has gone down the rails of capitalism vs. socialism, but I really don't care about that. All I care about is maximizing the benefits of economy to humanity. I think this can best be done with a hybrid system. You yourself mentioned that a lot of countries have an economy with some aspects of both.

In the flashlights example you are right that my main objection is to the mass manufacture just so people can have a choice between colors, and you are right that my primary motivation for opposition is resource and environmental conservation.

Stock is different point I was making. There is no way around the fact that overproduction is wasteful, even if you assume that the lack of demand will drive prices down to the point that the items will be purchased or consumed eventually. You still run into the problem of recycling those resources when you need them for something else. I don't think recycling will yield the same amount or quality of resources needed to manufacture the items in the first place. Even if you could assume a 100% extraction it would still take extra energy - energy that wouldn't be needed if the resources weren't consumed in wasteful manufacturing in the first place. Some form of economic planning can theoretically reduce this wastage.

I can see your point about surplus. My approach was to be extremely conservative and understock. However, I disagree that any economic system needs surplus. I think it would be better to overstock some items by a reasonable margin and to understock other items by a reasonable margin. Let's call these items essentials and nonessentials, respectively. There are many ways to forecast the reasonable margin. Not all of them are dependent upon previous consumption data. For instance, artificial limits can refine the margin for nonessentials.

[Entropist]

[lrh9]

I have to agree with Ashendant that businesses' primary concern is profit. I'm not saying that fact precludes shared interests between businesses and consumers. It has worked well enough in most cases. However, shared interests are only a means to an end. If consumer interests were rendered irrelevant to business interests then businesses would act to take advantage to maximize their profits without regard to consumer interests.

[Entropist]