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Roleplaying Apologetics
#1
Roleplaying Apologetics
Back when I was a kid, I learned this silly song during a summer camp:

Quote:One day in the middle of the night,
two dead boys got up to fight.
Back-to-back, they faced each other.
Drew their swords and shot each other.
Two deaf policemen heard this noise.
Came to kill the two dead boys.
If you don't believe this lie is true,
you can ask the blind man; he saw it too.

The contradictions were part of the silliness of the song but imagine the passage appeared in the Bible. Would that phase Christian apologists who insist that there are no contradictions in their sacred scripture? I'm going to role-play an apologist now based on the arguments I've heard in the past.

*ahem*

In verse one, the term "day" is often used to mean a period of time when the sun is up, in contrast to "night" but it also means a 24-hour period. This 24-hour period includes the nighttime. Consequently, we can conclude that the event of the demonically possessed dead bodies occurred at night. No contradictions so far.

Many fundy skeptics often laugh at verse two about two dead boys getting up to fight. This reveals their bias toward naturalism. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you may not have seen demons inhabit a corpse and reanimate it, doesn't mean such things could never happen. For those who believe in the holy scripture, it's not so difficult to accept. Besides, there is evidence of the supernatural in history. Such events are recorded in sacred scripture, our historical accounts of these ancient times.

In verse three, the demon-possessed corpses first lined themselves back-to-back in mockery of traditional pistol duels. Then they turned to face each other. It doesn't say, as many fundy atheists maintain, that they did both at the same time.

In verse four, they drew their swords and, with their other hand, drew a pistol to shoot each other. No contradiction.

There are varying degrees of deafness. Gunshots are loud enough so even the partially deaf could have heard them. These officers arrived on the scene and attempted to put down the demonically possessed corpses. Again, slaying the undead is something the fundy skeptics will scoff at but this is their bigotry in favor of naturalism.

Much has been made of verse seven by scoffers who like to claim the Bible openly admits to a lie. In fact, the word "lie" is actually based on the translation of the ancient Shladervian language in which the passage was written. The word is "shablavablacka" which could, in some context, be "lie" and, in others, "legend" or "fable". In this case, it is a recounting of a story of legend which happens, in this case, to be true.

Of course, the blind man couldn't see but he's still an eye-witness to the account, so to speak. He could hear the movement of the corpses and the subsequent fight, and therefore adds to the credibility of the story. He's what we call an "embarrassing witness". If the passage were a lie, they would have created a more compelling witness than a blind man. Consequently, the fact that one of our star witnesses is a blind man only adds to the credibility of the story.

So you see, there are no contradictions.

[End Role-Playing Exercise].

The point here is the core logical fallacy in apologetics is the pre-conceived notion. If you start with the assumption that something is true, you can come up with all manner of flimsy rationalizations to work your way toward the desired conclusion.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#2
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
I love that song. There is more to it, though... :/

One fine day in the middle of the night,
two dead boys got up to fight.
Back to back they faced each other,
drew their swords and shot each other.

One was blind and the other couldn't see,
so they chose a dummy for a referee.
A blind man went to see fair play,
a dumb man went to shout "hooray!"

A paralyzed donkey passing by,
kicked the blind man in the eye.
Knocked him through a nine inch wall,
into a dry ditch and drown them all.

A deaf policeman heard the noise,
and came to arrest the two dead boys.
If you don't believe this story's true,
ask the blind man, he saw it too.
Eeyore Wrote:Thanks for noticing.
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#3
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
I love the nonsense verse!
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#4
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
Apologetics actually find their motives from scripture, specifically 1 Peter 3:15 is one of the verses that stands out, I'm sure there are more, but I'd have to research. Doesn't a scientific hypothesis presuppose truth. It's filtered through a more reliable process than philosophy, but isn't a hypothesis just making an educated guess. Ie. "If I do this, this will happen" How different really is it to say "If God exists, then X makes sense to work that way"
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#5
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
(September 19, 2010 at 10:56 pm)tackattack Wrote: Doesn't a scientific hypothesis presuppose truth.

No. A hypothesis is constructed from the information available. You don't get to just make something up and then look for evidence to support it.

Once the hypothesis is proposed, you attempt to disprove it through testing (not selectively look for evidence to support it, ignoring all the contrary evidence and making up ad hoc hypotheses to explain away what you can't ignore). Then your colleagues will try to rip apart your hypothesis in the process of peer review. If your evidence survives the gauntlet of peer review, it's accepted as a theory.

Those more knowledgeable of the scientific method can correct me but that's my layman's understanding.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#6
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
So then the only difference is a wider (to hopefully prevent bias) groups of peers. What you see as constructed from available information ,I see as God's revelation. What you call make something up and then look for evidence to support it is rationalizations. The only difference between rationalization and justification is whether you experience it first or not. Both are talking about posteriori knowledge. I just don't get how you can factor personal observation or experience out of it. It boils down to what you do and don't accept as real and what you do or don't accept as evidence.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#7
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
The whole idea of a hypothesis is to see if your idea can be proven wrong, not right.
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#8
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
OK, granted but you're suggesting religion doesn't strive for the same process of testing and evaluating. While the medium is intangible, that doesn't mean we aren't told to test our understanding.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#9
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
(September 20, 2010 at 12:29 am)tackattack Wrote: OK, granted but you're suggesting religion doesn't strive for the same process of testing and evaluating. While the medium is intangible, that doesn't mean we aren't told to test our understanding.

Against what? "cos you're certainly not testing it against reality.
[Image: mybannerglitter06eee094.gif]
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
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#10
RE: Roleplaying Apologetics
They test their understanding against the bible and their own mind, reality never plays a role (usually).
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