Belief

[Valyza1]

I asked this question in another thread but it seemed to get ignored amongst all the more attention-demanding argumentation that seemed to be galvanizing it, so I'll rephrase the question here, because I'm super curious about the various responses atheists may give.

Basically, can any belief be changed? I know that most can, but I often wonder whether some people's belief in God is sometimes just unable to be changed, particularly since I've believed in God my whole life and nothing seems to have swayed me out of it. I will qualify that by saying I was raised in a God-believing family and sustained a belief in God throughout my adult life even though my conception of God's nature/requirements of me have changed. I've also found most Athiest arguments on God's existence to be far superior to most if not all Theist arguments. Yet the superiority of arguments do nothing to convince me that my basic belief in God is a flaw. At worst, it's just a seemingly permanent part of my psychological make up. Neither good nor bad, just part of me. So I'm wondering if sometimes, theism is just there permanently, like breathing. Would be interesting to hear thoughts on this from an atheist's perspective.

[Simon Moon]

I asked this question in another thread but it seemed to get ignored amongst all the more attention-demanding argumentation that seemed to be galvanizing it, so I'll rephrase the question here, because I'm super curious about the various responses atheists may give.

Basically, can any belief be changed?   I know that most can, but I often wonder whether some people's belief in God is sometimes just unable to be changed, particularly since I've believed in God my whole life and nothing seems to have swayed me out of it.  I will qualify that by saying I was raised in a God-believing family and sustained a belief in God throughout my adult life even though my conception of God's nature/requirements of me have changed.  I've also found most Athiest arguments on God's existence to be far superior to most if not all Theist arguments.  Yet the superiority of arguments do nothing to convince me that my basic belief in God is a flaw.  At worst, it's just a seemingly permanent part of my psychological make up.  Neither good nor bad, just part of me.  So I'm wondering if sometimes, theism is just there permanently, like breathing.  Would be interesting to hear thoughts on this from an atheist's perspective.

Belief is defined by contemporary analytic philosophers of mind as being; the psychological state in which one is convinced that a premise or proposition is true.

So, if you say you believe in a god, that means you are convinced it is the case that a god exists. One can be convinced for good reasons, and one can be convinced for bad reasons. If you say the arguments against the existence of a god are far superior to the arguments for the existence of a god, yet you continue to believe anyway, you have just admitted that you believe for bad reasons.

You are also admitting that you don't care what is actually true. Which is an attitude that I just can't understand. I live my life wanting to have as many true beliefs as possible, and as few false beliefs as possible. I want my internal representation of the world to map as closely as possible to reality. I do not want to believe things just because they make me feel good, they are a long held belief, many people close to me believe them, etc. I want to believe them because they are most likely true.

And the most reliable method, by far, of determining what is most likely true, is demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, reasoned argument and valid/sound logic. Faith is not a path to truth.

As far as your question as to whether beliefs can be changed, the answer is, in general, yes. For specific people, the answer is no. There are countless people that were very strong believers, even many that are clergy, or ex-clergy, that are now atheists. Dan Barker, Jerry Dewitt, Anthony Pinn, Andrew Johnson are just a few.


EDIT: let me add, that not every belief can be changed. No matter what, I could never believe I have the ability to fly unaided.

But I could have my belief that gods don't exist changed. All it would take is demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, reasoned argument and valid/sound logic to support the claim.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You talk yourself into believing something, why couldn't you talk yourself out of believing that?

I know people who have changed religions (and associated beliefs) three or four times.

[henryp]

I asked this question in another thread but it seemed to get ignored amongst all the more attention-demanding argumentation that seemed to be galvanizing it, so I'll rephrase the question here, because I'm super curious about the various responses atheists may give.

Basically, can any belief be changed?   I know that most can, but I often wonder whether some people's belief in God is sometimes just unable to be changed, particularly since I've believed in God my whole life and nothing seems to have swayed me out of it.  I will qualify that by saying I was raised in a God-believing family and sustained a belief in God throughout my adult life even though my conception of God's nature/requirements of me have changed.  I've also found most Athiest arguments on God's existence to be far superior to most if not all Theist arguments.  Yet the superiority of arguments do nothing to convince me that my basic belief in God is a flaw.  At worst, it's just a seemingly permanent part of my psychological make up.  Neither good nor bad, just part of me.  So I'm wondering if sometimes, theism is just there permanently, like breathing.  Would be interesting to hear thoughts on this from an atheist's perspective.

Our minds are biased by design, and are trained to take on more biases as we grow older.  What you know intellectually is only a small piece of the puzzle.  Growing up in a religious family, living your whole life with the belief in God, that's not something you can easily shake off.  

I don't know if it's permanently there, but it might as well be at some point.  Particularly, when you likely have no vested interest in not believing in God.  And for many, they reach a tipping point, where they are so invested in the belief in God, they won't let anything change that.

One of the perks of believing in God, is that being wrong doesn't really matter, so there usually is no real imperative to do the hard work to undo that belief, even if you sort of know it's nonsense deep down.  After all, we know lots of things are nonsense, but very frequently, we just carry on anyways.

[brewer]

You can believe what ever you want, the choice is yours (mostly after a certain age). Getting past the brain washing indoctrination and escaping the culture is more of an issue for some than others. 

My advice, continue to question beliefs and be willing to consider changing if a particular belief (in part or in whole) no longer works for you.

[Alex K]

I asked this question in another thread but it seemed to get ignored amongst all the more attention-demanding argumentation that seemed to be galvanizing it, so I'll rephrase the question here, because I'm super curious about the various responses atheists may give.

Basically, can any belief be changed? I know that most can, but I often wonder whether some people's belief in God is sometimes just unable to be changed, particularly since I've believed in God my whole life and nothing seems to have swayed me out of it. I will qualify that by saying I was raised in a God-believing family and sustained a belief in God throughout my adult life even though my conception of God's nature/requirements of me have changed. I've also found most Athiest arguments on God's existence to be far superior to most if not all Theist arguments. Yet the superiority of arguments do nothing to convince me that my basic belief in God is a flaw. At worst, it's just a seemingly permanent part of my psychological make up. Neither good nor bad, just part of me. So I'm wondering if sometimes, theism is just there permanently, like breathing. Would be interesting to hear thoughts on this from an atheist's perspective.

I'm not a mind reader, but it might have to do with the fact that a belief in God is a part of your identity, and you can't easily lose it because it would feel like giving up a part of who you are.

[drfuzzy]

I was raised Pentecostal. 
Since I was brainwashed at a young age, it took years for my "belief" in god to die. 
But education, reading, studying comparative religion, and actually reading the Bible without the assumption that it is "holy" (whatever the hell that means - which is usually don't ask questions - ) let me to question.  I came to the conclusion that what I had been taught all my life was false. 
It's as simple as that.  It was a slow re-programming by examining information, and it did not feel like a choice.

[Little lunch]

So you still believe in god.
For me it was fucking scary, like leaping off a building and I feel like I was in a state of belief and unbelief for a short time, my mind wrestling with itself.
Eventually the logic became unbearable and snap, I no longer believed.
Part of the revelation, aside from all the atheist literature I'd read, was that I felt more fear than love for god.
In fact, I didn't love it at all, this thing watching and judging me all my life and I knew I was bad and I really couldn't see myself getting into heaven.
And I realised that a great many people feel this way and there's nothing good about it at all.
Just another fucked up man made system. :-)

[Valyza1]

Thank you for all the thoughtful and kind responses! I get the feeling that many of you are viewing this as akin to a 12 step program that you've gone through and are now assisting me in my struggle to get to where you are, so, even though I don't view it quite the same way, I truly appreciate that spirit of assistance. Forgive me if I didn't respond to some of them, but just so you know, I do appreciate all of them. I should probably clarify a couple of things.

1) Not so important, probably not relevant, but I'm a guy. Only reason I mention this is because I realized my posts were being shown as "Valyza" which is actually part of a password I used to use based on the name of a fictional character in a story I wrote. I didn't realize I had accidentally created a user name out of it through Tapatalk. Was probably trying to create a password. But anyway, I know it shouldn't effect how you respond, but I still felt I had to clarify.

2)I should clarify that the main issue with this discussion, I think, and probably many similar types of discussions, is the lack of clarity in what is meant by "God" as it relates to what the theist believes. It's always difficult to define something who's nature seems to be beyond definition, but I'll give it a shot for my case. The best way I know how to define God is, very, very basically, as a central, singular source of all things. In doesn't really get more specific than that without becoming open to re-evaluation, but there's something about the basic idea being illegitimate which seems anathema to me. I use the word "all" here in an absolute sense, so the hope of actually finding evidence for or against the legitimacy of this idea seems incredibly small, probably non existent.

You talk yourself into believing something, why couldn't you talk yourself out of believing that?

You can believe what ever you want, the choice is yours (mostly after a certain age). Getting past the brain washing indoctrination and escaping the culture is more of an issue for some than others. 

My advice, continue to question beliefs and be willing to consider changing if a particular belief (in part or in whole) no longer works for you.

My response to those would be similar to my response to the following:

Belief is defined by contemporary analytic philosophers of mind as being; the psychological state in which one is convinced that a premise or proposition is true.

So, if you say you believe in a god, that means you are convinced it is the case that a god exists.

Right away something seems off about this definition re: my situation. And it may be the word "convinced", because that word seems to imply a process: I started out without the conviction, and then something or some things came along to cause me to have that conviction. This would seem to leave out the possibility of belief in God arising concurrently with my ability to believe anything at all. My childhood memory is just a big gradient blur getting more detailed with the age increase. There's no detailed specific memory of learning about God. My very faculty of belief, however quickly or slowly it is formed, may very well have been inclusive of God along with it's formation. Or it may not have. I don't know. (Incidentally I do remember learning about the devil, because it was the coolest Halloween costume in the store and I insisted on dressing up like it for Halloween before learning anything at all about it's religious significance)

One can be convinced for good reasons, and one can be convinced for bad reasons. If you say the arguments against the existence of a god are far superior to the arguments for the existence of a god, yet you continue to believe anyway, you have just admitted that you believe for bad reasons.

. I'm just not convinced it's as simple as that binary case. I'm not convinced that this kind of belief has basis in reason at all, whether good or bad.

You are also admitting that you don't care what is actually true. Which is an attitude that I just can't understand. I live my life wanting to have as many true beliefs as possible, and as few false beliefs as possible. I want my internal representation of the world to map as closely as possible to reality. I do not want to believe things just because they make me feel good, they are a long held belief, many people close to me believe them, etc. I want to believe them because they are most likely true.

I care about believing things that are most likely not false.

There is value to having an open mind. You can discover things you never thought possible, connect with others in ways you wouldn't have imagined, etc. If you focus on reducing the number of false things you believe, rather than on increasing the number of true things, you can maximize the openness while guarding against being suckered.

You may not agree with that philosophy, but does it help you understand where I'm coming from?

I could have my belief that gods don't exist changed. All it would take is demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, reasoned argument and valid/sound logic to support the claim.

I'm always curious to hear what sort of possible thing would fit that description.

One of the perks of believing in God, is that being wrong doesn't really matter, so there usually is no real imperative to do the hard work to undo that belief, even if you sort of know it's nonsense deep down.  After all, we know lots of things are nonsense, but very frequently, we just carry on anyways.

If, by "nonsense", you mean false or entirely invented, I think my situation is precisely that deep down, I sort of believe it's NOT nonsense. I can conceive of no bigger state of elation than having rid myself of an unnecessary burden. Belief in God can sometimes be a burden (when it comes to accounting for subtle actions that are seemingly inconsequential to other people, for example), so if I ever found it to be unnecessary, I would experience that elation. But as long as I don't see that it's unnecessary, there is always that sense of concern which would diminish it.

So you still believe in god.
For me it was fucking scary, like leaping off a building and I feel like I was in a state of belief and unbelief for a short time, my mind wrestling with itself.
Eventually the logic became unbearable and snap, I no longer believed.
Part of the revelation, aside from all the atheist literature I'd read, was that I felt more fear than love for god.
In fact, I didn't love it at all, this thing watching and judging me all my life and I knew I was bad and I really couldn't see myself getting into heaven.
And I realised that a great many people feel this way and there's nothing good about it at all.
Just another fucked up man made system. :-)

I hated the idea of something keeping tabs on me until I realized that I keep tabs on me and I'm a very unforgiving judge, so the idea of a judge who's more forgiving than me actually became more attractive . I can foresee objections to the idea of God being a forgiving judge, (the most obvious one concerning Hell) but I won't address them unless they're brought up, since I don't wish to get off track. The bottom line is that while I can at times feel burdened by my belief, I don't think I feel oppressed by it in any sense, so our journeys may differ in that respect.

[Mister Agenda]

It's like that story about the two wolves. You can't just believe anything you want instantly, but if you feed a belief it will grow stronger and if you starve it, it will grow weaker. It would take a lot of effort, maybe years worth, to get myself to believe one of the various versions of God is real, but if I was determined enough, I'm sure I could convince myself eventually. It would be much easier if instead of getting out of Christianity entirely I was just sort of 'lapsed' but was still broadly and weakly a believer. I have a hurdle of overcoming all the things that combined to convince me that God is probably not real.