Texan and Atheist

[everythingafter]

We had an advanced English course in high school and senior year was partially devoted to existentialism. We started with Prufrock, and I fell madly in love. To this day, I can pick up a book of his poems and they give me chills. It would be a hard race between him, Keats, and Whitman. A friend lent me Borges though, and that's been fun to dip into - a good study of Blake is next.

Biblical allusions, or any sort from any mythos, have their place in art and literature. Otherwise we'd have never had Jeff Buckley's rendition of Cohen's "Hallelujah", or Bougereau's sumptuous "Birth of Venus". I recognize the role of religion in the past, I just don't think it has any place in the here and now... except in art and literature.

Wow. An AP high school course that covered existentialism. Wish I could have gone somewhere like that. I took AP English but don't remember anything about existentialism. Had to go to college to get introduced. Stupid South Carolina (home state). I didn't really think people considered Prufrock as a necessarily existentialism poem, but I can very well see how they might. I knew there was a reason that I came to love it. Same "something" I suppose that makes me want to read "The Stranger," "Notes from the Underground" and other works over and over.

I agree about the role of religion today. As the line goes, Beethoven's music and Shakespeare's works don't prove God exists, only that Beethoven and Shakespeare existed.

[thesummerqueen]

Wow. An AP high school course that covered existentialism. Wish I could have gone somewhere like that. I took AP English but don't remember anything about existentialism. Had to go to college to get introduced. Stupid South Carolina (home state). I didn't really think people considered Prufrock as a necessarily existentialism poem, but I can very well see how they might. I knew there was a reason that I came to love it. Same "something" I suppose that makes me want to read "The Stranger," "Notes from the Underground" and other works over and over.

I agree about the role of religion today. As the line goes, Beethoven's music and Shakespeare's works don't prove God exists, only that Beethoven and Shakespeare existed.

It was an IB class, not AP, and therein lay the difference I think. IB seemed to be a little more all-encompassing with its subject matter. This was up in Northern VA, at one of "Time Magazine's Schools of the Year" (the only good thing about Stonewall Jackson High in Manassas was that it sported the same colors as the Redskins), so that might have been another reason - every one of my schools from Elementary up was some sort of 'pilot' with some program.

We studied several of Eliot's poems, but started with Prufrock, and...well...love at first read. That particular one's been a mixed bag of comfort, solace, and inspiration.

[everythingafter]

It was an IB class, not AP, and therein lay the difference I think. IB seemed to be a little more all-encompassing with its subject matter.

Hmm, I'm not familiar with IB classes. Is that like something similar to AP but with a broader scope?

This was up in Northern VA, at one of "Time Magazine's Schools of the Year" (the only good thing about Stonewall Jackson High in Manassas was that it sported the same colors as the Redskins),

And that it's named for one hell of a general.

We studied several of Eliot's poems, but started with Prufrock, and...well...love at first read. That particular one's been a mixed bag of comfort, solace, and inspiration.

Yeah all it took was one read for me to ... and those words pretty well describe my feelings as well. I had a good gut-turning, draw-dropping moment that only literature provides upon reading the last few stanzas for the first time in that Poetry 101 course.

[thesummerqueen]

Hmm, I'm not familiar with IB classes. Is that like something similar to AP but with a broader scope?

Yeah, pretty much. I guess the best comparison was in the art classes - if I talked to anyone in AP art, they sounded like they focused much more on the technical aspects whereas in IB we were encouraged to look through the entire globe for styles and history - technique was supposed to be secondary. In my case, she didn't want me just sitting behind the pottery wheel, she wanted me looking up styles from all over history and the world.

And that it's named for one hell of a general.

I wreaked a lot of my own havoc in his battlefield while growing up.

Yeah all it took was one read for me to ... and those words pretty well describe my feelings as well. I had a good gut-turning, draw-dropping moment that only literature provides upon reading the last few stanzas for the first time in that Poetry 101 course.

Ain't it grand? I think the kicker for me was when the teacher stopped and said "what do you guys think he means by 'Do I dare to eat a peach?' and no one had an answer. I was waving my hand around so much I think she thought I was having an epileptic fit.

[Minimalist]

And that it's named for one hell of a general.

Who was a religious psychotic.

[everythingafter]

Ain't it grand? I think the kicker for me was when the teacher stopped and said "what do you guys think he means by 'Do I dare to eat a peach?' and no one had an answer. I was waving my hand around so much I think she thought I was having an epileptic fit.

I suspect it, but what was your answer?

[thesummerqueen]

And that it's named for one hell of a general.

Who was a religious psychotic.

Shhhhhhh - Manassas likes to forget the dirtier parts of its history. The Battlefield? That's just a nature walk with some historic buildings!

The high school was built to house a sudden influx of students who had originally been going to a smaller building of the same name. The smaller one became "Stonewall Middle". As it originally was built in the 60's, or somewhere thereabouts, I suspect they didn't much care about the nastier parts of their namesake.

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Ain't it grand? I think the kicker for me was when the teacher stopped and said "what do you guys think he means by 'Do I dare to eat a peach?' and no one had an answer. I was waving my hand around so much I think she thought I was having an epileptic fit.

I suspect it, but what was your answer?

There's a pretty obvious answer, but I left it at asking the class "Have the rest of you never eaten a farmer's market peach?!" Next class I brought some in. There was a guy who used to bring the most gorgeous Gaffney peaches straight from the orchards to the market on Saturdays - larger, sweeter, and juicier than anything you could possibly get in the local stores. You could see it dawn on a few people the minute they bit down. I said that the peach symbolized every sensual and wildly sweet desire he had - not even just the sensual ones, but anything that could give you pleasure but might be 'messy' or even vaguely inappropriate - and was too afraid to go after.

A couple weeks ago I had one of the last of the summer crop from around here - there's nothing else that strokes all your senses the way a peach will. It's my reminder not to let what people think, what society deems appropriate, or my own insecurities get in the way. Eve's apple should have been a peach instead.

[everythingafter]

You could see it dawn on a few people the minute they bit down. I said that the peach symbolized every sensual and wildly sweet desire he had - not even just the sensual ones, but anything that could give you pleasure but might be 'messy' or even vaguely inappropriate - and was too afraid to go after.

A couple weeks ago I had one of the last of the summer crop from around here - there's nothing else that strokes all your senses the way a peach will. It's my reminder not to let what people think, what society deems appropriate, or my own insecurities get in the way. Eve's apple should have been a peach instead.

That is interesting. I have usually went with the more obvious meaning of peaches being associated with old people eating the fruit out on porch rocking chairs, and here Prufrock may be questioning whether he's ready to resign himself to becoming an old, lonely curmudgeon. Thus, resigning himself to that life, rather than continuing to dream of being with some of the ladies in the sitting room.

"Do I dare eat a peach?" seems to imply his certainty that he has the option of partaking in some sort of sensual activity, that he can, at will, "eat a peach" (or engage in sensual activity with one of the ladies). I think at this point in the poem, he has convinced himself, with this bald head and trousers, that he doesn't have that option, thus resigning himself to his dreams rather than reality.

But the "messy" and inappropriate interpretation is an intriguing one to think about. And yes, if I were God or whoever wrote Genesis, I definitely would have had Eve partake of a peach rather than an apple, something squishy, almost lurid, not crunchy. lol.

[thesummerqueen]

That is interesting. I have usually went with the more obvious meaning of peaches being associated with old people eating the fruit out on porch rocking chairs, and here Prufrock may be questioning whether he's ready to resign himself to becoming an old, lonely curmudgeon. Thus, resigning himself to that life, rather than continuing to dream of being with some of the ladies in the sitting room.

"Do I dare eat a peach?" seems to imply his certainty that he has the option of partaking in some sort of sensual activity, that he can, at will, "eat a peach" (or engage in sensual activity with one of the ladies). I think at this point in the poem, he has convinced himself, with this bald head and trousers, that he doesn't have that option, thus resigning himself to his dreams rather than reality.

But the "messy" and inappropriate interpretation is an intriguing one to think about. And yes, if I were God or whoever wrote Genesis, I definitely would have had Eve partake of a peach rather than an apple, something squishy, almost lurid, not crunchy. lol.

So much for not 'spamming'... Sorry Rika!

I've known a few older guys. They were cool, totally capable of keeping a younger woman completely entertained, but their self-esteem issues became self-defeating. You know, they want the girl, they could probably have the girl, but then they think "is she really going to want me over a younger man?" Prufrock seems to go through a lot of time and trouble getting himself ready for the situation, and yet never actually enjoying it. I always felt he had a major stick up his ass...

Someone wrote that they always interpreted it as knowing that he was old enough to lose a tooth if he accidentally bit down on the pit. I guess you could turn that into an extremely extended metaphor for daring to do younger activities. You're down in GA so I guess you see it more often, but where I grew up there really weren't "sitting porches" - I had to move to an older neighborhood in NC to witness people actually sitting out every warm evening on a porch gabbing, etc. I guess that's why something like that never occurred to me.

I have absolutely no description of a peach that in any way sounds publicly appropriate as to why it is a better choice than the apple - they used to use figs as "The Fruit" instead, which made some sense. Although after reading the way Michael Pollan writes about apples in The Botany of Desire, you almost want to stay in favor of a good Jonagold.