The need to believe?

[*Deidre*]

I think some of the problems I have always had with organized religion is how it affects so few people in a positive way. I've known Christian men and women who are married for example who cheat on their spouses and pretend like they're single around others and then taut how important their faith is. Lol Everyone makes mistakes etc but if you live your life as if your faith really isn't relevant to your behavior, why are you clinging to the theist label? It's just stuff like that that's always irked me about many "believers."

Kind of like the lady in Kentucky was it who refused to give a marriage license to a gay couple but she herself was divorced a few times over? Lol what is faith really doing for that woman besides providing her with a scapegoat for her bigotry?

[Ben Davis]

As an always atheist i find this fascinating. But I wonder if theists have ever understood that all of us have a sense of the numinous?

It often surprises me how religious people don't get that I can feel awe or emotionally moved without some sort of spiritual beliefs. I often get "Oh, so you're not a total atheist then?". Yes! Yes I am! Why don't you understand that I'm human, just like you, with the same senses, feelings and need to find a place in the universe? Just because I take the credit for my own self-discovery, I'm somehow inhuman? It seems crazy.

I have have spent today walking my wife around Pevensey castle, and trying to evoke how this place would have been in C.290AD.

I love Pevensey Castle! I used to visit a lot in my youth. It's about time I took the kids.

We are primates and evolution is pretty good at explaining why we feel things.

No magic required.

Doesn't stop it from feeling like magic though, and that's a big chunk of the problem right there. Simple human incredulity is easily exploited.

[Brian37]

I think some of the problems I have always had with organized religion is how it affects so few people in a positive way. I've known Christian men and women who are married for example who cheat on their spouses and pretend like they're single around others and then taut how important their faith is. Lol Everyone makes mistakes etc but if you live your life as if your faith really isn't relevant to your behavior, why are you clinging to the theist label? It's just stuff like that that's always irked me about many "believers."

Kind of like the lady in Kentucky was it who refused to give a marriage license to a gay couple but she herself was divorced a few times over? Lol what is faith really doing for that woman besides providing her with a scapegoat for her bigotry?

The problem with both organized religions AND personal beliefs, is that while organized religion, EVERY RELIGION in human history, has more political power when organized, the masses who confuse that success are really no better than the unsuccessful or less powerful minorities, or "non religious". 

There is no utopia so I do think those who believe in a higher power, but don't like organized religion tend to be less dogmatic and more empathetic, it really is no different than hard core fiction vs soft core fiction. Religion worldwide is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy, even local national diplomacy considering every umbrella label has competing sub sects that vie for the same power. 

But even with atheists, we don't all agree and we are also subject to the same divisions and diversity and individual flaws as religious people. Our species sophisticated language does not change that our evolutionary drive stems from prior life. Other life are more monogamous others more loose and individualistic. Humans as individuals seem to be both as individuals. "Cheating" is far too often thought of a male thing, but the reality is it is pretty evenly split between women and men. 

Instead of playing into the theist argument  of magic needed to glue a partnership together, the truth is honesty is the key, consent is the key, and communication is the key, not the sex itself. What makes "cheating" wrong isn't the sex, but the lying, the omission.

[*Deidre*]

I think some of the problems I have always had with organized religion is how it affects so few people in a positive way. I've known Christian men and women who are married for example who cheat on their spouses and pretend like they're single around others and then taut how important their faith is. Lol Everyone makes mistakes etc but if you live your life as if your faith really isn't relevant to your behavior, why are you clinging to the theist label? It's just stuff like that that's always irked me about many "believers."

Kind of like the lady in Kentucky was it who refused to give a marriage license to a gay couple but she herself was divorced a few times over? Lol what is faith really doing for that woman besides providing her with a scapegoat for her bigotry?

The problem with both organized religions AND personal beliefs, is that while organized religion, EVERY RELIGION in human history, has more political power when organized, the masses who confuse that success are really no better than the unsuccessful or less powerful minorities, or "non religious". 

There is no utopia so I do think those who believe in a higher power, but don't like organized religion tend to be less dogmatic and more empathetic, it really is no different than hard core fiction vs soft core fiction. Religion worldwide is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy, even local national diplomacy considering every umbrella label has competing sub sects that vie for the same power. 

But even with atheists, we don't all agree and we are also subject to the same divisions and diversity and individual flaws as religious people. Our species sophisticated language does not change that our evolutionary drive stems from prior life. Other life are more monogamous others more loose and individualistic. Humans as individuals seem to be both as individuals. "Cheating" is far too often thought of a male thing, but the reality is it is pretty evenly split between women and men. 

Instead of playing into the theist argument  of magic needed to glue a partnership together, the truth is honesty is the key, consent is the key, and communication is the key, not the sex itself. What makes "cheating" wrong isn't the sex, but the lying, the omission.

I agree but the difference between many theists and many atheists is that atheists own their issues while theists with the same issues blame evil in the world for their mistakes or choices. As if there is another force opposite to god causing them to do wrong. If only they prayed more etc they wouldn't succomb to temptation. The human condition is flawed and that's ok...it's a natural thing to be perfectly imperfect. Only we can fix our mistakes and many theists simply don't see it that way. So it take so away personal responsibility when you believe that something outside of yourself is responsible for why you behave the way you do. (Good or bad)

[JackRussell]

The problem with both organized religions AND personal beliefs, is that while organized religion, EVERY RELIGION in human history, has more political power when organized, the masses who confuse that success are really no better than the unsuccessful or less powerful minorities, or "non religious". 

There is no utopia so I do think those who believe in a higher power, but don't like organized religion tend to be less dogmatic and more empathetic, it really is no different than hard core fiction vs soft core fiction. Religion worldwide is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy, even local national diplomacy considering every umbrella label has competing sub sects that vie for the same power. 

But even with atheists, we don't all agree and we are also subject to the same divisions and diversity and individual flaws as religious people. Our species sophisticated language does not change that our evolutionary drive stems from prior life. Other life are more monogamous others more loose and individualistic. Humans as individuals seem to be both as individuals. "Cheating" is far too often thought of a male thing, but the reality is it is pretty evenly split between women and men. 

Instead of playing into the theist argument  of magic needed to glue a partnership together, the truth is honesty is the key, consent is the key, and communication is the key, not the sex itself. What makes "cheating" wrong isn't the sex, but the lying, the omission.

I agree but the difference between many theists and many atheists is that atheists own their issues while theists with the same issues blame evil in the world for their mistakes or choices. As if there is another force opposite to god causing them to do wrong. If only they prayed more etc they wouldn't succomb to temptation. The human condition is flawed and that's ok...it's a natural thing to be perfectly imperfect. Only we can fix our mistakes and many theists simply don't see it that way. So it take so away personal responsibility when you believe that something outside of yourself is responsible for why you behave the way you do. (Good or bad)

Well the human condition is just the human condition. I don't see how being atheist or theist changes that. I don't see it as flawed, just as a savannah brained primate that's been successful in population terms and trying to deal with the fact we have a few cc more brains than the rest of our comrades in the animal kingdom.

It ain't too sexy, but it's the hand we've been dealt.

[KevinM1]

I think some of the problems I have always had with organized religion is how it affects so few people in a positive way. I've known Christian men and women who are married for example who cheat on their spouses and pretend like they're single around others and then taut how important their faith is. Lol Everyone makes mistakes etc but if you live your life as if your faith really isn't relevant to your behavior, why are you clinging to the theist label? It's just stuff like that that's always irked me about many "believers."

Kind of like the lady in Kentucky was it who refused to give a marriage license to a gay couple but she herself was divorced a few times over? Lol what is faith really doing for that woman besides providing her with a scapegoat for her bigotry?

*decloak*

Christianity is often a game of who can humble-brag the best.  Truly humble people don't make a big show about how useless and terrible and worthless they are, but for the grace of their god.  Truly good people don't do good in order to point to it and say, "See?  I helped these poor sods!"  No, what's actually happening is a way for people to create a social pecking order based on the appearance of piety.

Lip service and hypocrisy are rife in environments like that, where perception matters more than action and deed.  So, it's not surprising that so many of these people are caught doing things that are directly opposed to what they preach, or that they're forgiven almost immediately.  It's all part of the game, and nothing is more satisfying to those playing it than to see one of their own fail... it moves the others up the leaderboard, after all.

Not all Christians are like that, of course, but more than enough are.  It's one of the many reasons why I tend to stay as far away as possible from people who are demonstrative in their 'belief'.  I have no patience for any of that kind of BS.

*recloaking*

[*Deidre*]

I think some of the problems I have always had with organized religion is how it affects so few people in a positive way. I've known Christian men and women who are married for example who cheat on their spouses and pretend like they're single around others and then taut how important their faith is. Lol Everyone makes mistakes etc but if you live your life as if your faith really isn't relevant to your behavior, why are you clinging to the theist label? It's just stuff like that that's always irked me about many "believers."

Kind of like the lady in Kentucky was it who refused to give a marriage license to a gay couple but she herself was divorced a few times over? Lol what is faith really doing for that woman besides providing her with a scapegoat for her bigotry?

*decloak*

Christianity is often a game of who can humble-brag the best.  Truly humble people don't make a big show about how useless and terrible and worthless they are, but for the grace of their god.  Truly good people don't do good in order to point to it and say, "See?  I helped these poor sods!"  No, what's actually happening is a way for people to create a social pecking order based on the appearance of piety.

Lip service and hypocrisy are rife in environments like that, where perception matters more than action and deed.  So, it's not surprising that so many of these people are caught doing things that are directly opposed to what they preach, or that they're forgiven almost immediately.  It's all part of the game, and nothing is more satisfying to those playing it than to see one of their own fail... it moves the others up the leaderboard, after all.

Not all Christians are like that, of course, but more than enough are.  It's one of the many reasons why I tend to stay as far away as possible from people who are demonstrative in their 'belief'.  I have no patience for any of that kind of BS.

*recloaking*

That's why it seems like religion tends to take on the personality of whoever folkows it, so the lady from Kentucky is just a bigot and uses religion to back up her bigotry. Strip people of religion and they are who they are - good or bad. Religion just gets the credit either way. 

Well put and agree with you.

[JackRussell]

It's not only religions that are formed on a cult of personality. This is aimed at us too. Hitler's fascism, obviously Catholic, Stalin, a seminary student exploiting the Czarist cult or the trinity of Kim's in North Korea.

None of them has anything to do with the actual existence of any Gods.
Potestas corrumpere solet et potestas absoluta corrumpit absolute.

Roman Landscape archaeologist, Latin may be wrong.

[*Deidre*]

So, when you're processing things, the way I am right now, you realize that a day with a god, is really a day without you imagining one. How should I say this, but if a god exists, he/it is there, whether I believe or not, right? But, that's just it. If I stop believing, all of the ''powers'' that I've bestowed upon a deity...were really all in my imagination. That's just so crazy to think of it that way.

This is progress.

[ignoramus]

Kev! How the fuck are you!?
What's been happnin!

Health holding up?