Thoughts on Hell?

[Astreja]

Just to explain once more, I did not say anything to you, I asked a question.

It was a snarky, passive-aggressive dig with a question mark on the end.

I take responsibility for what I do and say, If I didn't I wouldn't be asking for god's forgiveness daily.

Instead of asking for forgiveness, how about not repeatedly doing rude things?

If by all this nonsense you're posting you're trying to get an apology from me I think that's pitiful, but to sooth your feelings I'll say I'm sorry you were offended, hope this makes you feel better.

That isn't an apology -- it's a notpology.  You aren't sorry for your behaviour; you're sorry for my reaction to your behaviour.

Regardless, it doesn't matter; I don't want any apologies from you, as they are worthless to me.

As for feeling better, the supportive comments from the other posters who called you out are pure gold.  Thank you, all.

[Mr.Obvious]

Of course you are, let's just forget the who said this and who said that and go on.
You seem to be having trouble understanding what God did from the beginning. God created a perfect world and in that perfect world God gave all His creations free will to choose what they wanted. Instead of saying things you want to believe read the creation story and take it for what it says, I'm not asking you to believe it just to base the discussion on how it was recorded in the Bible. Why did God create man with free will, because He wanted those He created to love Him. Forcing people to love you isn't love at all, do you try to force people to care about you, I don't I want genuine feeling toward me good or bad. If He created a world where thinking people could not choose they would have still rebelled, Lucifer and the 1/3 that rebelled did so in the presence of God. What makes it so is that God created man with free will so they could chose to love Him. You want things to be simple, without a hitch and life just ain't that way. Ask yourself this, would you want a life time partner that couldn't choose to love you, don't you think that person would be resentful if another one was more appealing.

Of course, let's just forget about the inconsistencies and the backtracking... Sure... Why not...?
Your god would be logically inconsistent if he were to create his creation in any other detail than how he willed it to be and in any creation, we would have an equal amount of free will, no matter what the inhabitants of his creation would choose.
That is the whole point. It could be easily resolved if you were to say God is maximally powerfull and maximally knowing, rather than omni-. But you don't.
You say I want things to be simple? If you are going to give your god limitless attributes, it is simple. You just don't want it to be.
Also, your last sentence is weird.
But it is not about what I would want. It's not even about what God would want. Because for him to create someone that would choose anything that he didn't choose for that person to choose would be logically impossible. Whether or not that person's choice is the right one or not.
 

I did correct you by explaining what omnipresence means, what you believed about it is not right. I also stated that God's omniscience was due in part to His omnipresence and thus these make Him omnipotent, I'm really confused as to how you can't see this.

No, you assert stuff. You don't correct me or point it out. You just say, 'you are wrong, my assertion is true'.
But nothing of this matters seeing as you backtracked and said omnipresence didn't even come into the free will discussion.

Because God is omnipresent and omniscient means he can see down through all of man's histories and view the outcome of each one, isn't this what you have been saying? And you being a mortal human can't even see what could happen to you in the next few minutes, is this a fair statement? Then how is it that you can say that there was a perfect outcome to any of the histories that you can't even see. You can't know this only God can.

Remember this, when God created man He wasn't trying to recreate himself, we are far below God and at present the angels also. God created us above the animals and other creatures on the earth, it was our responsibility to care for them and actually still is.

Now to answer your question. Yes God created a sin free universe, one in which man is allowed to choose because God wanted us to freely love Him and without free choice that's just not possible, this is what God wanted and did. Adam and Eve didn't have to sin and if they and all the rest of mankind down through eternity did not then God would have dealt with Lucifer and the other angels who rebelled and that would have been that. God however knowing that Lucifer would become jealous and rebel against who He is knew that man would fall sooner than later. God designed the plan of salvation before He ever created this world and I'm speaking of God the Son, who knew He would have to suffer for His creation to redeem us to Him. Now if there was a plan where man would have never sinned don't you think God would have created it if it allowed for His will to be done. That will being He wanted to create man free to choose to love Him. Who are we to tell our creator what He should do, He has given us life and an eternal one if we choose it.

That is starting to resemble what I'm saying. I'm relieved you are starting to at least understand my point of view. Was starting to go crazy here.
I can't see the outcome. True. But god could. Due to his omniscience and his omnipotence. If he couldn't create the perfect outcome, he wouldn't be omnipotent.
One way to solve this, on your end, would be to say he his maximaly potent, instead of omnipotent. Just like it would resolve if you used maximally knowing, rather than omnipotent. But by giving it these attributes you make this being limitless. That makes its options limitless.

God didn't create a sin free universe, if we follow this train of thought. God created sin. God greated all, after all. And nothing is created outside of his will. To say it is, is to say he is not omniscient or omnipotent.
Do you not see, by the way that your paragraph starts with you saying god created the world without sin but ends in claiming he created the world in such a way that sin would purposefully come into the world? Do you not see? You start with saying God didn't design sign and end with a claim that intrinsically implies God designed sin because its necessary.
And if now you seem to think god can't do logically impossible acts and thus required a minimum evil to have his plan come to fruition because otherwise he would not create it; then why did he create it in a way that would lead so many to never know of Christ? How many people, by no fault of their own, have there been that have never heard of Christ? Or that have been indoctrinated and brainwashed by other cults and religions?
I don't have to aks myself such questions as "Now if there was a plan where man would have never sinned don't you think God would have created it if it allowed for His will to be done." Because I don't believe in a omniscient, omnipotent being. You are the one that has to resolve that little paradox of yours. And guess what, you're right: it doesn't fit, now does it? Let it sink in and have long hard look at the contradictions you keep throwing out there.

No, why do you keep insisting God turns own His self, He can't that would go against who He is. I'm still at a loss as to why you can not understand what God did and why He did it. It's this simple God created what was His will and man turned against their creator, causing all the problems we have today. 

Because God would have undeniably chosen what we would choose. You want God to have created us with free will, but true free will is inherently impossible for him to create. Its as impossible as him changing his mind, which you now seem to agree on insofar at least that he can't turn of his all-knowingness. He can't be logically incoherent.
So God chose to create us in such a way that we were meant to choose as we would choose. You and me both. You choosing him. Me not choosing him. Otherwise, due to his all-knowingness and allpowerfulness, he would have created it differently. It was his will to create us so that you would come to him and I would not. It was his will that some would turn against him. And going further, he chose who would choose to go against him. That is his will.
And its ridiculous.

He did see how things would turn out, He was at the end of time before He created it, it is who He is in His omnipresence, eternal existing in all time past, present and future simultaneously. His omniscience let's Him know how to create all things and how they work, just look at the universe it can only be understood by an omniscient mind. what makes you think that it's God's job to save anyone, that is a mistake on your part. It is for us to come to Him in our free choice, God doesn't want those who do not want Him, this is something you need to get through your head, God will not force anyone. Those souls that will be lost is the responsibility of each individual, God's given us the way to Him, people do not need perish. No problem remains, it seems so to you because you can't grasp the concept of God's love and our relationship with Him in that love. He didn't cause us to sin we chose to sin and in that we have the responsibility to accept His salvation through Jesus. You want God to force you to love Him, so tell me just how is that even possible???

Because of his omniscience and omnipotence at the creation of time and the universe he CHOSE how it would work out in detail OUT OF AN UNLIMITED SET OF OPTIONS DUE TO HIS UNLIMITEDNESS that you claim he has. This makes it logically impossible for him not to force his creation to do what he wants. Everything is forced, by definition. To say it is not forced is logically incoherent.

As I have said God did not choose any certain universe, He created this universe and made the world we live on inhabitable for us and He made it all perfect. Man then chose to disobey God and in that sin of selfishness brought evil into this world and God cursed this world so that man would have an imperfect world to live out his days in. In man's sin he became imperfect and thus in need of redemption if He wanted to live in the perfect eternity that God has for us, this one He has chosen for those who choose to love Him and has made a place for those who do not want to love Him. How do I put this other than God did not plan a predetermined world, He's not like you that wants the easy way out of the position you have put yourself into with Him. The you in this last sentence means all of mankind not just yourself.

He chose for man to disobey.
Is it sinking in?
To say he didnt', is to say he isn't omniscient and omnipotent. Its to say something happened in his creation outside of his will.

No He couldn't have that's predetermination and God does not desire us to be controlled like that, why can't you get it that predetermination goes against God. Don't come back and say well you said he has predetermined the next creation. Yes He has and we know this and accept this, we want it.
On what authority do you have it that God created Lucifer to fail, Lucifer was the greatest angel in heaven, more powerful than all the others, Lucifer even walked in the Garden of Eden with God before his fall. also on what authority do you have it that God has ever done anything half-hearted as you suggest. His creation and the Son was the creator cost Him everything even His life as a man. Only a God who loves His creation would go through all this and if He didn't have to He would have done it differently. God looked down through time and saw that we would need a redeemer and then created us. Quite being so hard headed you seem far to intelligent to do this.

Because of his omnipotence and his omniscience.
For Christ's sake, man. What is so hard about this?
The combination of these traits makes a less than perfect world inexcusable.
It nullifies 'free will'.
It implies predetermination. No matter his 'desire'.

It's the truth, you do not know God so how do you expect to be able to describe who He is. No, you would still be wrong, the difference is you would know it. It's wrong because of your lack of knowledge of God, that lack makes it wrong, you're being a bit immature with such a statement. You're not making incoherent statements, you are making statements about God that are incorrect, there's a difference in the two.

Bold: Lack of knowledge of God does not make my statement wrong.
Italic: Lack of knowledge of God does make my statement wrong.

Do. You. See. Question. Mark.

I did not know we were suppose to be having some kind of competition, I thought we were discussing some of God's attributes. Now to answer your statement, it's not a metaphor and I'm not a hypocrite. I can dismiss others religious text because I've read about their religions but, that doesn't really have anything to do with it because as I said God says there are no other gods and so the text are as false as the gods in them.
Unfortunately I'm going to disagree with you, you have lied and will again because you are not as I am not a perfect moral agent. God on the other hand being omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent is perfect and therefore can not lie, lying is outside of who He is. By the way Min will be jealous.

Where did I imply a competition? The dick joke?
It is a metaphor.
It does make you a hypocrite.
You are still assuming god is without lies to justify his claim that he does not lie.
And I don't know if you are saying you are a perfect moral agent or not. Please do take care of such sentences. They pop up all over and make it harder to understand your point. Especially if its already internally and logically inconsistent.

Who is Min, by the way?

First of all I can't save anyone only God can. Second I'm not required to meet what you would accept as convincing. The evidence He left behind is convincing for those who want to know God and I would think it only logical that a logical minded person would want to know whether God is real or not. But then I have been known to be wrong. You may be right I might be wasting my time with the atheist on this site, but then again who really knows, not you nor I. The people I expect to reach are those who visit and never join the site, they are searching.

Well, I'll grant you that you have provided a reason for your preaching that is consistent with your world-view.
It does imply your god is pretty impotent though, as lots of people want to know him, as you say, and then either can't be convinced by his evidence or are convinced by wrong evidence. Unless you are somehow saying they didn't truly want to know him.
And its not a good reason to be on a discussion forum, imho. It shows you are not here to discuss, but to preach. It show you are not open to other points of view. That you are not here to  grow and learn.

Why are you suddenly bent out of shape and using unproductive language? I'm not berating you as you seem to believe, what do you expect me to do lie about what I know to be the truth just to make you feel good, want happen the truth is far to important to cloud over to preserve someone's feeling, but as I said I'm not berating you.

I use harsh words because you are frustrating. And again, not frustrating because you are presenting good argument. But frustrating because you keep clinging to logically incosistent ones without spotting the logical inconsistencies, even if you place them within the same paragraph. And because of your weird stance on the relevance of omnipresence to this discussion.
I'm not asking you to lie about what you know. I'm not asking you to spare my feelings.
I'm just asking you to not backtrack on what you are saying. You first dismiss my point because I didn't mention omnipresence. Then you go and say omnipresence doesn't have anything to do with what we are discussing. And then you go back to making omnipresence important. Seriously, anyone would get angry.

I know exactly what I'm saying and have a very clear ideas of what is correct. Remember I'm the one of the two in this post who has studied the scriptures and read from publications about God that were written by men with greater knowledge than I have. I'm not refusing to back up what I state, I said that I'm not going to the scriptures or any other publication that deals with God when the discussion is as broad as this one is. If you want to narrow it down we can do so. I haven't shouted at you nor have I berated you, (unless you are calling
correcting what you are saying berating), I've not put one word in all caps and have only stated that what you believe about God is wrong. You think you can throw out opinion about God and expect me to accept that you know what you are talking about, especially when I know you do not understand God at all. You are using the same old tactic and argument other atheist use, I was hoping you might be the one who would listen but I guess you are no different than they are. You expect me to read the texts of other religions before I say anything against them, you said this above and yet when I say you need to read the Bible before you can discuss God you balk at it, that's a double standard.

You do not like that I deny all you have said in our conversation, then you need to learn the truth about God because I will always correct you or anyone else. I'm not lying to keep your feeling in tact, that would be dishonest on my part, dishonest to you, God and myself.

You are refusing to back up what you state. You even state that you are refusing to back it up.
And I'm not calling correcting berating, though I wouldn't say you've done a lot of correcting.
What I call berating is dismissing my entire point by saying I forgot about an attribute which you later said didn't matter at all. What I call your berating demeanor is you critique on my ideas or those of others in this thread solely on your perceived notion that we lack an openess to a source of information. Through this you don't tackle our points, you try to tackle us. That makes it personal. That makes it berating, in my book.

I understand what you are saying and I understand it's wrong, unlike you I have studied the Bible for years and have some kind of understanding of God, my studies are many times with people more knowledgeable about God than I am, I came to a much clearer understanding of God's omnipresence a while back when reading a book by a man that man read because of his understanding of God and no I do not agree with all he says just as some do not agree with me on what hell is.

This paragraph is weird. I don't have a clue what you are saying this time.
 

I brought up omnipresence in the first returned post to you and told you it was important to God's omnipotence and omniscience. I've always stated that none of God's omni attributes gives us our free will, it is God's will that we have free will, it is a part of His plan we have free will, it is what He decided that gives us our free will.  His love for us and His desire for us to love Him as He loves us gives us our free will. If this doesn't make it clear to you nothing short of God is going to convince you.
If we were to have a discussion on God's omnipotence or His omniscience we would have to bring His omnipresence into a discussion on either one, this is how important His omnipresence is.

No. Its not important. It really isn't.
And its not that his omniscience and omnipotence don't give us free will, they actively make true free will logically impossible.
(But to be fair, I don't even believe in free will and I don't believe in God. (But that's a discussion for another time.)

It is said that those who make a positive claim should bring the proof, I make the claim and admit that I can't, you make the claim that God doesn't exist (a positive claim) and all you can do is throw up I need to prove He does. The saying works for both sides, so where's your proof God doesn't exist.

No. For the last time: I don't believe God exists.
I'm not saying I believe he doesn't exist.
Just that I don't believe he exists.

Have you been actively seeking Him are you looking with an open mind and heart, if you can't say yes to these thing then God will not show Himself to you in a spiritual way, why because you can't get by the physical, you've convinced yourself He isn't worthy or is non-existent. So just exactly why should He come to you, if you do not care He will let that be your life's choice. So it's not God doing a bad job, He is doing exactly as He planned, to let you exercise your free will and then live with the decision for eternity.

Yes. I haven't always been an atheist.
I used to be a christian. And I wanted to spread his word and love to those that didn't believe. I wanted to serve him and to spread his message.
And the more I read and heard in trying to defend and show his glory and love and compassion, the less I found myself able.
It was a slow and horrible path. And I spent many night praying to restore my faith to its former strength, but everyday it crumbled more and more. And I felt like I was losing my bedrock.

Of course now I'm glad I went through that ordeal. Because I'm happier than ever. But it was horrible going through that confusion, loss and feeling of utter failure.

And its not a choice what you believe, by the way. I haven't even touched on that, have I now? You don't choose what you believe, GC.

A positive claim that needs proof to accompany it. I'm telling you this the only place to find the answer is in the Bible and the Bible will tell you something different than what you believe.

The bible did not show me a different proof, not as far as I got, in any case. And where I got did not encourage me to read on.
And I have been pointing out why your god is one of determinism. All you do is say he doesn't want us to be predetermined, but his omniscience and omnipotence when creating time and the universe make this moot.

Another positive claim with no evidence. You do not know that the creation could be anything other than what it is, you are using a philosophy to try and rationalize an infinite God. You haven't the slightest evidence that there could have been any other creation than the one we live in. Again proof of your positive claim.

It is not so much a claim as it is a correct interpretation of the attributes you said.
Are you saying something that is omnipotent has limits to what it can do?
Are you saying omniscience has limits to what it knows ?
What do I need to prove here? That unlimited power, such as you hold your God has, is not limited? I don't. I just agree with you in the premise that it is not limited.
Do not confuse a premise with a claim.

Prove the above bold and then prove this, I'm interested to see how you can know there could have possibly been any other creation than the one we have and guess what you will have to deal with God's omnipresence to have any hope of proving it and when you deal with His omnipresence you will see how wrong you are.

See above.
No omnipresence needed.
You set the premise of an unlimited being. Unlimited means it has unlimited options.
To say it couldn't create a different creation rather than this one, is to limit your unlimited being.
I'm not proving a claim. I'm staying consistent to your premise. Something you fail to do.

I think we have carried this as far as we can in as much as this is too broad of a discussion, I'm interested in your responses to any part of this post especially the last part. If you want to continue a discussion after this we need to take them one at a time with God's omnipresence included in His omnipotence and omniscience.

I don't really want to continue a discussion GC. Perhaps if you learn to accept your own premises.
If you post to this, I might reply, but its getting quite the hassle with all the quotations, I'm sure you agree.
If you post anything else on the forum, I might feel inclined to discuss it with you. But right now, I'm done. There are only so many ways of saying the same thing.