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My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
#1
My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
(If a house shows up in a neighborhood, and no one saw it being built, did it have a builder?)

"From nothing nothing comes" is scientific. (I think it still is, isn't it? Under debate, maybe).
"The universe is something." I think that would be classified as a true statement.
"Therefore the universe came from something." I think that would be a nice logical conclusion.
Now, since it is universally observed (which observation is required in order for anything to be classified as scientific), that anything made has a maker, some consideration should be taken as to the nature of the maker of a given thing.
The maker of a wooden chair just needs to know enough about woodworking in order to have planned and accomplished the fashioning and construction of the chair. It is a functional item, with a useful purpose, so it would require intelligence to accomplish the production of a wooden chair, albeit not necessarily a great intelligence, because the item is not very complex.
A Rolex watch also requires a maker, and one who needs enough intelligence to make all the small intricate parts of the watch, and to make them all work together correctly and properly, and over a long period of time. The maker would have to know how to tell time, and how to cause the made item to also be able to tell time. This item is also quite functional, and also has a useful purpose, but since it is much more complex than a wooden chair, it requires more intelligence, and more labor as well, to accomplish the production of it.
Now the same could be said of a house, a hotel, a hospital, a skyscraper, or an entire city. Each requiring more intelligence, more organization, and more manpower to accomplish it's respective product.
So using this same reasoning, (and I think it is logical reasoning. Correct me if I am wrong), we must assume that the level of intelligence, organization, and power required to accomplish such a thing as an entire universe, and not just any universe, with all of it's nearly innumerable complexities, but a universe in which there is life, and not just life, but an astoundingly wide variety of forms of life, each with their various levels of intelligence, purpose, and function- I say we must assume that the level of intelligence, organization, and power required to accomplish this is utterly incalculable.
I think that conclusion is quite logical, and about as scientific as we can be, since, though we did not witness the creation of the universe, all other things that we know to be made are also known to have a maker, and the making of such made things can be observed. It would I think, therefore be quite an illogical conclusion that the universe itself could not have a maker.

(If a universe comes into existence, and no one saw it being made, did it have a maker?)
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#2
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
Hey Dan, welcome to the forums! How's about an intro thread so we can get to know ya?

Edit: then we'll delve into your argument here.

(December 27, 2017 at 8:34 pm)Dan Brooks Wrote: "From nothing nothing comes" is scientific. (I think it still is, isn't it? Under debate, maybe).
"The universe is something." I think that would be classified as a true statement.
"Therefore the universe came from something." I think that would be a nice logical conclusion.
I would say there's a non-sequitur here. While the universe is "something" we have no reason to believe it did not "come from nothing"... some cosmologists have postulated ways in which something can come from nothing.

Quote:A Rolex watch also requires a maker, and one who needs enough intelligence to make all the small intricate parts of the watch, and to make them all work together correctly and properly, and over a long period of time. The maker would have to know how to tell time, and how to cause the made item to also be able to tell time. This item is also quite functional, and also has a useful purpose, but since it is much more complex than a wooden chair, it requires more intelligence, and more labor as well, to accomplish the production of it.
Now the same could be said of a house, a hotel, a hospital, a skyscraper, or an entire city. Each requiring more intelligence, more organization, and more manpower to accomplish it's respective product.

Ah, the watchmaker argument. But what about black holes? They exist. But what purpose do they serve? For everything you can show that has a purpose, I can show you something without one. So the universe as a whole is a hodgepodge of things... some without purpose, some with. That doesn't necessarily point to a designer.
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#3
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
Welcome matey...
It all comes down to one thing...

And most people fall victim to this fallacy also...

It is the binary thought fallacy.

Basically, just because we don't know, or are not intelligent enough to understand the complexities of the universe (or anything else for that matter), that we default to an answer.

They used to worship the sun once upon a time... Because they had no other explanation.
Binary thought and the god of the gaps fallacies are the 2 most popular fallacies amongst theists...

Fight the urge... (Unless of course you've already reached your conclusion and are just working backwards to make it fit a particular fairy tale ... That's another fallacy of reason...Big Grin)
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#4
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
(December 27, 2017 at 8:49 pm)ignoramus Wrote: Welcome matey...
It all comes down to one thing...

And most people fall victim to this fallacy also...

It is the binary thought fallacy.

Basically, just because we don't know, or are not intelligent enough to understand the complexities of the universe (or anything else for that matter), that we default to an answer.

They used to worship the sun once upon a time... Because they had no other explanation.
Binary thought and the god of the gaps fallacies are the 2 most popular fallacies amongst theists...

Fight the urge... (Unless of course you've already reached your conclusion and are just working backwards to make it fit a particular fairy tale ... That's another fallacy of reason...Big Grin)

Bolding mine. Nah, brah, some enterprising prick made that shit up to get in on nicking his fellow humans out of their money and sweet virgin girls.

As for the OP, just because someone didn't see something built doesn't mean it didn't have a builder, and a putative "god" doesn't have to be named/blamed for said edifice.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#5
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
Humans are creators and are intelligent. We are also narcissistic. We can not understand how everything came to be without someone like us. Hence, we create gods like ourselves. Primates in the sky!
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






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#6
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
Oh, yay. Another design argument. As if we hadn't heard it 100 times already.

It was bullshit all the other times too.
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
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#7
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
(December 27, 2017 at 9:13 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: Oh, yay. Another design argument. As if we hadn't heard it 100 times already.

It was bullshit all the other times too.

Lol. 

He's new. Give 'im a break. He doesn't know how well-worn the argument is.
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#8
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
Hello Dan and Welcome.

You might be surprised but we've heard this one before and it does not hold much water for me/us. How about just talking to us to begin with.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#9
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
Dan, you're comparing apples and oranges. On one hand, you have a house, which is known to be built by a builder. On the other hand, you have the universe, which is of mysterious origins, and there's nothing about its composition which necessarily implies a builder, sentient or otherwise.

Note that "come into existence" and "be made" are not the same idea.
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#10
RE: My House Did not have a Builder (or did it?)
Of course not. Every new thing in an already existing universe comes from pre-existing causes. That says nothing about a real void, which by the way probably has never existed.
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