R.I.P. Koko

[The Grand Nudger]

Was every third word "nipple"? Speaking of...where is Stimbo?

[Minimalist]

He bailed.

[Godscreated]

It is sad to loose such an ambassador for the protection of endangered species. I do find it funny that people believe they taught a gorilla sign language, gorillas communicate that way in the wild all the time, just as many animals do. If we were to study them more in their own back yards we might be able to understand what they are communicating to each other, then apply it to ourselves to communicate with them. Why is it that man believes the animals need to do it our way when they have had a very efficient way of communicating for a long time. I've worked with dogs for a long time and I've learned that working with them instead of forcing a complete change by them is far better and gets quicker results. You know it is we who have the superior brain, you would think that we could figure out ways to understand them in their natural ways. I can assure you your dog knows more about you than you do your dog.

GC

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There was no sign she was ill.

  I was hoping that her last missive was Tango Uniform, before she keeled over.

Kilo Mike Alpha.

[Mister Agenda]

There was no sign she was ill.

46 is a ripe old age for a gorilla.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There was no sign she was ill.

46 is a ripe old age for a gorilla.

Too soon, I guess. 

[The Grand Nudger]

It is sad to loose such an ambassador for the protection of endangered species. I do find it funny that people believe they taught a gorilla sign language, gorillas communicate that way in the wild all the time, just as many animals do. If we were to study them more in their own back yards we might be able to understand what they are communicating to each other, then apply it to ourselves to communicate with them. Why is it that man believes the animals need to do it our way when they have had a very efficient way of communicating for a long time. I've worked with dogs for a long time and I've learned that working with them instead of forcing a complete change by them is far better and gets quicker results. You know it is we who have the superior brain, you would think that we could figure out ways to understand them in their natural ways. I can assure you your dog knows more about you than you do your dog.

GC

The idea of teaching them sign language was precisely to show that it -could- be done..that this was not a uniquely human thing.  Further, as a way of gaining insight into their internal states, to see if that was a uniquely human thing.  This is where the researchers have so far failed to find what they might have hoped for.  Beyond criticisms of kokos handler and how she had a habit of interpreting for koko...what we;ve noticed in these experiments is that the subjects aren;t really conversationalists.  They use language in what seems to be an almost purely utilitarian manner.  We;ve yet to see them spontaneously point up to the clouds and ask profoundly compluicated (and unrelated but conceptually adjacent) questions about them..as our own children often do.  Or to chatter in sign while waiting in a line like we do at the checkout aisle.  

It;s trying to figure out whether or not other apes are like us in those regards that isn;t best served by learning their language, and particularly so if they use their own language in the same way that they appear to be using ours.  We want to know if they possess concepts or internal states like ours..and they would have no rerason to know what those were unless we explained them to them in our manner of description..and then asked them what they were....and more fundamentally little confidence in whatever answer we got unless we could demonstrate unambiguosly that they understood the concept and related it back to us as we;d related it to them.   Fun aisde..before we taught them to sign, we tried to teach them to talk...and the people who did so were perplexed as to why it never panned out.  Now, ofc, we know why and the idea that a researcher wouldn;t seems as preposterous as the idea that gorillas dont communicate in a language of their own.....but we have to remember that these experiments are what established those things in the first place.  It hasn;t always been a known known.

[Godscreated]

It is sad to loose such an ambassador for the protection of endangered species. I do find it funny that people believe they taught a gorilla sign language, gorillas communicate that way in the wild all the time, just as many animals do. If we were to study them more in their own back yards we might be able to understand what they are communicating to each other, then apply it to ourselves to communicate with them. Why is it that man believes the animals need to do it our way when they have had a very efficient way of communicating for a long time. I've worked with dogs for a long time and I've learned that working with them instead of forcing a complete change by them is far better and gets quicker results. You know it is we who have the superior brain, you would think that we could figure out ways to understand them in their natural ways. I can assure you your dog knows more about you than you do your dog.

GC

The idea of teaching them sign language was precisely to show that it -could- be done..that this was not a uniquely human thing.  Further, as a way of gaining insight into their internal states, to see if that was a uniquely human thing.  This is where the researchers have so far failed to find what they might have hoped for.  Beyond criticisms of kokos handler and how she had a habit of interpreting for koko...what we;ve noticed in these experiments is that the subjects aren;t really conversationalists.  They use language in what seems to be an almost purely utilitarian manner.  We;ve yet to see them spontaneously point up to the clouds and ask profoundly compluicated (and unrelated but conceptually adjacent) questions about them..as our own children often do.  Or to chatter in sign while waiting in a line like we do at the checkout aisle.  

It;s trying to figure out whether or not other apes are like us in those regards that isn;t best served by learning their language, and particularly so if they use their own language in the same way that they appear to be using ours.  We want to know if they possess concepts or internal states like ours..and they would have no rerason to know what those were unless we explained them to them in our manner of description..and then asked them what they were....and more fundamentally little confidence in whatever answer we got unless we could demonstrate unambiguosly that they understood the concept and related it back to us as we;d related it to them.   Fun aisde..before we taught them to sign, we tried to teach them to talk...and the people who did so were perplexed as to why it never panned out.  Now, ofc, we know why and the idea that a researcher wouldn;t seems as preposterous as the idea that gorillas dont communicate in a language of their own.....but we have to remember that these experiments are what established those things in the first place.  It hasn;t always been a known known.

I agree and as everything else about animals hasn't always been a known known.
Don't you think that we should have always known that animals can't be conversationalist, nor conceptualize ideas, if it were already possible I believe we would have noticed them doing things that were more human like. By more human like I do not mean scientist interpreting animal actions as being human thought or action. It seems that scientist marvel over the idea that some apes and monkeys use tools and I find it silly especially since a crow/raven can use tools in more complicated task than an ape. The orca may be the smartest of all animals because of their seeming ability to vocally communicate and work as a team to kill their prey, some of the things they can accomplish is amazing and I for one am glad they do not live on land. Like most mammals they teach their young, but it seems that the their young actually learn a language similar to the way humans do, it seems less instinctual as in dogs, cats and other mammals.

GC

Moderator Notice
Edited to fix quote

[The Grand Nudger]

I agree and as everything else about animals hasn't always been a known known.
Don't you think that we should have always known that animals can't be conversationalist, nor conceptualize ideas, if it were already possible I believe we would have noticed them doing things that were more human like.

Not at all, and we still don;t know whether they;re conversationalists in their own tongues - as it were.  They seem to chatter an awful lot, we just don;t know what that means..if it means anything, nor would not seeing them do human like things establish they they don;t have species like analogs for humanlike things.

As to the conceptualization of ideas..we;re pretty sure that animals all the way "down" to crocodiles can do that.

By more human like I do not mean scientist interpreting animal actions as being human thought or action. It seems that scientist marvel over the idea that some apes and monkeys use tools and I find it silly especially since a crow/raven can use tools in more complicated task than an ape. The orca may be the smartest of all animals because of their seeming ability to vocally communicate and work as a team to kill their prey, some of the things they can accomplish is amazing and I for one am glad they do not live on land.  Like most mammals they teach their young, but it seems that the their young actually learn a language similar to the way humans do, it seems less instinctual as in dogs, cats and other mammals.

GC

Vocality and organization is impressive, but not necessarrily indicative of being "the smartest".  The majority of birds are vocal and organized as all get out and still...well..bird-brained.....however.....it may actually be the case that cetaceans are the smartest of all animals.

Every single one of them has a more impressive brain than any ape, including ourselves.

[Godscreated]

I agree and as everything else about animals hasn't always been a known known.
Don't you think that we should have always known that animals can't be conversationalist, nor conceptualize ideas, if it were already possible I believe we would have noticed them doing things that were more human like.

Not at all, and we still don;t know whether they;re conversationalists in their own tongues - as it were.  They seem to chatter an awful lot, we just don;t know what that means..if it means anything, nor would not seeing them do human like things establish they they don;t have species like analogs for humanlike things.

As to the conceptualization of ideas..we;re pretty sure that animals all the way "down" to crocodiles can do that.

You are correct in that they chatter a lot and we do know that they have warning calls that differ from normal soundings, canines and felines speak more by body movement and facial expression. Felines and canines have calls for their young for different situations but without conceptualization I can't see that this is anything more than instinct or a very primitive and limited conversation. If they could conceptualize I would believe they would be capable of a more diverse language.

By more human like I do not mean scientist interpreting animal actions as being human thought or action. It seems that scientist marvel over the idea that some apes and monkeys use tools and I find it silly especially since a crow/raven can use tools in more complicated task than an ape. The orca may be the smartest of all animals because of their seeming ability to vocally communicate and work as a team to kill their prey, some of the things they can accomplish is amazing and I for one am glad they do not live on land.  Like most mammals they teach their young, but it seems that the their young actually learn a language similar to the way humans do, it seems less instinctual as in dogs, cats and other mammals.

GC

Vocality and organization is impressive, but not necessarrily indicative of being "the smartest".  The majority of birds are vocal and organized as all get out and still...well..bird-brained.....however.....it may actually be the case that cetaceans are the smartest of all animals.

Every single one of them has a more impressive brain than any ape, including ourselves.

 That's what I was saying, birds for the most part are less intelligent than apes and monkeys, yet certain birds can problem solve better than apes while using tools. I can see orca conceptualizing to some degree because of the way the work together and their ability to hunt differently from one group to another when situations for their particular area demand a different approach. They amaze me in what they can do and in watching them hunt they do seem to show an intelligence that shows actually thinking to the point of problem solving. They knew long before man that they could immobilize (catatonic state) a shark by holding it belly up, even the great white, which by the way have been shown to fear the orca to the point of abandoning huge areas of the ocean and moving on to less productive hunting ground thousands of miles away.   

GC