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[split] IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?-NDE Discussion
#21
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 25, 2018 at 5:51 pm)pocaracas Wrote:
(October 25, 2018 at 5:46 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: *emphasis mine*
A statement you can't actually demonstrate, AKA unfounded speculation...

You can't demonstrate the opposite either.
The null hypothesis then should be one that stands.

The only claim that has been made in this thread is that one ceases to exist upon death, therefore it requires evidence to corroborate it.
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#22
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 25, 2018 at 6:13 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(October 25, 2018 at 5:51 pm)pocaracas Wrote: You can't demonstrate the opposite either.
The null hypothesis then should be one that stands.

The only claim that has been made in this thread is that one ceases to exist upon death, therefore it requires evidence to corroborate it.

That's not a claim.
That's an observation.

Wishful thinking has made people come to desire an option in which that observation is not the whole story. And those people have thus made the claim that "one goes on existing after death".
This claim requires evidence.

The observation is self evident.
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#23
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 25, 2018 at 6:19 pm)pocaracas Wrote:
(October 25, 2018 at 6:13 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: The only claim that has been made in this thread is that one ceases to exist upon death, therefore it requires evidence to corroborate it.

That's not a claim.
That's an observation.

Wishful thinking has made people come to desire an option in which that observation is not the whole story. And those people have thus made the claim that "one goes on existing after death".
This claim requires evidence.

The observation is self evident.
I'd counter that by saying observations have been made of people being brought back from clinical death, to recount themselves looking at their own dead body from the outside.

Since observations are self evident...
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#24
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 25, 2018 at 6:49 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(October 25, 2018 at 6:19 pm)pocaracas Wrote: That's not a claim.
That's an observation.

Wishful thinking has made people come to desire an option in which that observation is not the whole story. And those people have thus made the claim that "one goes on existing after death".
This claim requires evidence.

The observation is self evident.
I'd counter that by saying observations have been made of people being brought back from clinical death, to recount themselves looking at their own dead body from the outside.

Since observations are self evident...

False. Why must you lie? Is that your only option to shore up your crackpottery?
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#25
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 25, 2018 at 3:07 pm)Whateverist Wrote:
(October 25, 2018 at 2:08 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Yes.

Now that I've given you a straight answer, how about giving me one?


Well proof is only for formal logic and mathematics but I guess you'd like me to justify the claim that consciousness cannot exist apart from brain/bodies.  Okay, I can't deny the possibility of a clever alternative account of consciousness: perhaps we are brains in vats; perhaps we are plugged into a matrix; perhaps the universe has created souls which it continually recycles on the wheel of life; or perhaps the lord your God creates consciousness receptors on some vast assembly line and lets the souls age for eons of time before embodying them only to reclaim and sort them upon the death of the bodies he has cleverly designed to give the appearance of giving rise to consciousness.  I have no conclusive justification for thinking as I do though I do feel I am being much less extravagant in my theorizing than you.

So how good is your justification for thinking consciousness does not arise as a function of brains?
 Pretty tough to prove a negative isn't it?  Oh wait, you find youtube videos convincing, don't you?
*emphasis mine*

Because we have instances of people being  operated on with absolutely zero brain functionality, recounting events and conversations that took place during the operation.

So clearly this show that conciousness can exist apart from a non-functioning brain, that's as close to dead as were going to get.

That being said I  noticed you didn't ask me to elaborate on my "yes" answer to your question of "can digestion exist apart from the digestive tract".

I'm impressed that you didn't take the bait, someone like Judy would have swallowed that hook line and sinker.
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#26
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 27, 2018 at 7:44 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Because we have instances of people being  operated on with absolutely zero brain functionality, recounting events and conversations that took place during the operation.

Somehow, I doubt any surgeon would operate on a brain dead patient.
Waste of hospital resources...
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#27
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 27, 2018 at 7:44 am)Huggy74 Wrote: That being said I  noticed you didn't ask me to elaborate on my "yes" answer to your question of "can digestion exist apart from the digestive tract".

I'm impressed that you didn't take the bait, someone like Judy would have swallowed that hook line and sinker.


Well, I consider my question as a knock out argument against consciousness being separable from bodies, provided you accept the parallel to digestion. I have no idea how/why you would answer yes but I didn't expect to find anything interesting by asking.

But all those kooky accounts of what happens under extreme physical duress are always shared by people with embodied, working minds .. the kind of minds which are capable of imagination and hallucination. So of course I don't take them as anything beyond interesting. I certainly don't assume they are a window into the Twilight Zone.
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#28
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 27, 2018 at 8:39 am)pocaracas Wrote:
(October 27, 2018 at 7:44 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Because we have instances of people being  operated on with absolutely zero brain functionality, recounting events and conversations that took place during the operation.

Somehow, I doubt any surgeon would operate on a brain dead patient.
Waste of hospital resources...

Not if they purposefully induced brain death in order to operate on said brain.
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#29
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 27, 2018 at 1:40 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(October 27, 2018 at 8:39 am)pocaracas Wrote: Somehow, I doubt any surgeon would operate on a brain dead patient.
Waste of hospital resources...

Not if they purposefully induced brain death in order to operate on the brain.

I'm no specialist, but all the brain surgeries I've ever heard of required the patient to be awake, so the surgeons have immediate feedback if something goes wrong.

Can you link me that procedure you speak of, please?
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#30
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
(October 27, 2018 at 1:40 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(October 27, 2018 at 8:39 am)pocaracas Wrote: Somehow, I doubt any surgeon would operate on a brain dead patient.
Waste of hospital resources...

Not if they purposefully induced brain death in order to operate on said brain.

Quote:Death is an irreversible, biologic event that consists of permanent cessation of the critical functions of the organism as a whole [1]. This concept allows for survival of tissues in isolation, but it requires the loss of integrated function of various organ systems. Death of the brain therefore qualifies as death, as the brain is essential for integrating critical functions of the body. The equivalence of brain death with death is largely, although not universally, accepted [2].

Brain death implies the permanent absence of cerebral and brainstem functions.

Diagnosis of brain death (G Bryan Young, MD, FRCPC; Professor of Neurology, University of Western Ontario, Canada)  [emphasis mine]

Quote:Brain death is defined as an “Irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brainstem”.

Open Anesthesia || Brain Death: Definition

Google Wrote:brain death
/ˈbrān ˌdeTH/
noun
noun: brain death

irreversible brain damage causing the end of independent respiration, regarded as indicative of death.

Merriam-Webster Wrote:brain death noun
Definition of brain death

: final cessation of activity in the central nervous system especially as indicated by a flat electroencephalogram for a predetermined length of time
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