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Civility
#21
RE: Civility
Horrible extremists do post here, Bel..they're just the types of horrible extremists we're all used to.  The kind you have to be civil around.  

I was speaking to the more general case of civility, though.  While we usually conceive of it as being something, for lack of a better word..utterly wholesome, a more careful reading of what it is and what it has been, in the majority, used to effect..might suggest otherwise.
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#22
RE: Civility
(November 18, 2018 at 11:22 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Horrible extremists do post here, Bel..they're just the types of horrible extremists we're all used to.  The kind you have to be civil around.  

I was speaking to the more general case of civility, though.  While we usually conceive of it as being something, for lack of a better word..utterly wholesome, a more careful reading of what it is and what it has been, in the majority, used to effect..might suggest otherwise.

It looks as though the majority view is clear: Doing our very best to speak kindly to one another would be a bad thing. 

I suspect that's the view in America as a whole.
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#23
RE: Civility
(November 18, 2018 at 11:24 pm)Belaqua Wrote:
(November 18, 2018 at 11:22 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Horrible extremists do post here, Bel..they're just the types of horrible extremists we're all used to.  The kind you have to be civil around.  

I was speaking to the more general case of civility, though.  While we usually conceive of it as being something, for lack of a better word..utterly wholesome, a more careful reading of what it is and what it has been, in the majority, used to effect..might suggest otherwise.

It looks as though the majority view is clear: Doing our very best to speak kindly to one another would be a bad thing. 

I suspect that's the view in America as a whole.

No, I don’t think that is a view as a whole. Far too much; perhaps. Identity politics is really taking over, and it’s becoming an us vs them far too often. And unfortunately when even one side starts, it’s difficult not to follow suite after a while.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#24
RE: Civility
(November 18, 2018 at 6:33 pm)A Theist Wrote:
(November 17, 2018 at 9:47 pm)Belaqua Wrote: I've been struck by the fact that some users of the forum felt the desire to request a section in which civility is a requirement. And I've been surprised by the discussions in the Announcement section about whether this is good or not. 

Maybe it would be interesting to hear about why we think civility is a good thing to aim for. Some are saying it's a way for bad people to avoid getting the scoldings they deserve. For me, though, I think it is worth taking that risk. 

Here are a few of reasons why:

1) Although we may disagree to a greater or lesser extent, most of us actually want to aim for the truth. In this, we are friends. Blake said, "Opposition is true Friendship." And dialogue at its best is dialectic which moves us toward better thinking, on a personal level. 

2) No doubt there are people who deserve to be scolded, perhaps punched in the face, even made to shut up entirely. But this is a not-very-famous chat room. So despite having said #1 above, I don't think we have the power to change much at all. If we are actually in fear for the country, we'd better leave this site and go to the school board meeting. Insulting our interlocutors here won't help. 

3) Insults shut down discussion, they don't accomplish anything but a tiny personal catharsis. In general, they dumb things down

4) I have been known to get angry on line and fly off the handle. But it would be better for me to practice my shutting-up skills instead.

Any additional ideas? Or am I wrong (please be kind)?

Number 3 pretty much sums up the purpose of the civility thread. It's easy to derail a discussion through insults. But with the stricter rules in place I believe the discussions here will be more challenging when you can only attack the argument rather than attacking the person who's making the argument.  In this thread, you can only attack an argument with a counter argument, and evidence with counter evidence.

I'll bother, for once. "Number 3" coming from a guy who self-admittedly indulges in it at work about politics, with no malice aforethought with his co-workers. FFS, this is a total example of how the religious act, but just about politics in your workplace. I'll bet a ton of doughnuts to one nickel that not one of your co-workers has a different religious bent. Shee-it.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#25
RE: Civility
(November 18, 2018 at 11:29 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(November 18, 2018 at 11:24 pm)Belaqua Wrote: It looks as though the majority view is clear: Doing our very best to speak kindly to one another would be a bad thing. 

I suspect that's the view in America as a whole.

No, I don’t think that is a view as a whole.  Far too much; perhaps.  Identity politics is really taking over, and it’s becoming an us vs them far too often. And unfortunately when even one side starts, it’s difficult not to follow suite after a while.

Maybe I see the bad side, because that's what shows up on the news. I hope that's it.

I guess what bugs me is that there always seems to be a good reason to be unkind. The other side is a danger! I have to call him bad names or he'll get away with it! But of course this is the view of both sides.
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#26
RE: Civility
Lesson learned:

Do what everyone else does and weed through the ubiquitous nastiness that is the internet. Have a conversation with the people you want to have a conversation with, and don't reward the flagrant assholes like Wololo/Min/A Theist/Alpha Male with responses. Be the change you want to see.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great

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#27
RE: Civility
(November 18, 2018 at 11:40 pm)Fireball Wrote: I'll bother, for once. "Number 3" coming from a guy who self-admittedly indulges in it at work about politics, with no malice aforethought with his co-workers. FFS, this is a total example of how the religious act, but just about politics in your workplace. I'll bet a ton of doughnuts to one nickel that not one of your co-workers has a different religious bent. Shee-it.

I wonder if you have me confused with someone else...? 

I don't have co-workers. People pay me to teach private lessons at a community center. I go there, they hand me money, I go home. That's my job. The students are nearly all (nominally) Buddhists. The town is about 90% True Pure Land Buddhist. Since I'm not Buddhist, I guess I win the doughnuts. That's good; I like doughnuts. 

We don't talk politics a lot. The classes are art history, philosophy, and literature. My doctorate was in the philosophy of art, and my dissertation was on how the theological views of two artists affected their means of expression. 

We could PM later about delivering the doughnuts.
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#28
RE: Civility
(November 19, 2018 at 12:23 am)Belaqua Wrote:
(November 18, 2018 at 11:40 pm)Fireball Wrote: I'll bother, for once. "Number 3" coming from a guy who self-admittedly indulges in it at work about politics, with no malice aforethought with his co-workers. FFS, this is a total example of how the religious act, but just about politics in your workplace. I'll bet a ton of doughnuts to one nickel that not one of your co-workers has a different religious bent. Shee-it.

I wonder if you have me confused with someone else...? 

I don't have co-workers. People pay me to teach private lessons at a community center. I go there, they hand me money, I go home. That's my job. The students are nearly all (nominally) Buddhists. The town is about 90% True Pure Land Buddhist. Since I'm not Buddhist, I guess I win the doughnuts. That's good; I like doughnuts. 

We don't talk politics a lot. The classes are art history, philosophy, and literature. My doctorate was in the philosophy of art, and my dissertation was on how the theological views of two artists affected their means of expression. 

We could PM later about delivering the doughnuts.

Not addressed to you, sorry. This was addressed to "a theist's" post. I should have been more clear about that. Timing had a bit to do with it. We good? Big Grin
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#29
RE: Civility
It's something of a paradox. Civility gives incivility its power. Without the restraints imposed by civility, the things that would be shocking become inert and harmless. So in a sense civility creates incivility. I'm sure there's a Taoist lesson in there somewhere, but I'm not up to it tonight. When you allow words to hurt you, then people will hurt you with words.
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#30
RE: Civility
(November 19, 2018 at 12:36 am)Fireball Wrote:
(November 19, 2018 at 12:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: I wonder if you have me confused with someone else...? 

I don't have co-workers. People pay me to teach private lessons at a community center. I go there, they hand me money, I go home. That's my job. The students are nearly all (nominally) Buddhists. The town is about 90% True Pure Land Buddhist. Since I'm not Buddhist, I guess I win the doughnuts. That's good; I like doughnuts. 

We don't talk politics a lot. The classes are art history, philosophy, and literature. My doctorate was in the philosophy of art, and my dissertation was on how the theological views of two artists affected their means of expression. 

We could PM later about delivering the doughnuts.

Not addressed to you, sorry. This was addressed to "a theist's" post. I should have been more clear about that. Timing had a bit to do with it. We good? Big Grin

Understood! 

I was really looking forward to those doughnuts though.
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