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Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 27, 2018 at 5:41 pm
One of the great, unsung miracles of the Lord is how he manages to be two places at once, sometimes moving in opposite direction. We see an example of this great miracle in Matthew and Luke.
One of the questions people have about our glorious lord is how he could be "of Nazareth" and yet born in Bethlehem at the same time. Matthew and Luke both offer explanations of their own.
Luke has his family from Nazareth and he was born in Bethlehem and returned to Nazareth.
Matthew has his family from Bethlehem, they go to Egypt and then he came to settle in Nazareth.
Matthew Chapter 2
Quote:Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem...
...And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
...When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:...
...And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
TA DA! Born in Bethlehem? Check! Called "of Nazareth"? Check!
Notice how they came into the "house". " THE house" specifically. No stable. No shepherds. No manger. It was their house. That's where they lived.
Notice also how when Joseph is returning from Egypt, he doesn't go home to Nazareth but rather comes to settle there as an alternative. Had he been following Luke's narrative, that the family only went to Bethlehem to register for a census, there would have been no cause to even consider going back to Bethlehem. Instead, he avoids going home to Bethlehem because a son of Herod reigns there. Better to settle in Nazareth where a ...um... different son of Herod reigned.
Anyway, on to Luke's Jesus.
Luke Chapters 1-2
Quote:...And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary...
...And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David ...
...And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn...
...And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
TA DA! Same accomplishment but done in reverse with no trip to Egypt.
Checkmate, atheists!
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™: True Christian is a Trademark of the Landover Baptist Church. I have no affiliation with this fine group of True Christians ™ because I can't afford their tithing requirements but would like to be. Maybe someday the Lord will bless me with enough riches that I am able to.
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 27, 2018 at 6:56 pm
Fair enough, but you have to remember that Matthew had an agenda - he was trying to equate (more or less) Jesus with Moses, so it would have been understandable for him to fabricate the sojourn into Egypt.
As for the bit about 'came into the house', there is clearly a time gap. The wise men came to Herod in Jerusalem and asked about the infant, then Herod had a bit of a chin wag with 'all the chief priests and scribes of the people'. It should have taken a few days at least to get them together, then figure a day for the confab, then maybe a half day for the Three Wise Men to go the 6 miles to Bethlehem. It isn't unreasonable to expect that Mary and Company found better accommodation between the birth and the visit. The text says Jesus was born in the stable, not that the family stayed there for any great length of time.
Boru
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 27, 2018 at 7:10 pm
Gotta get these glasses checked. I thought you wrote " Shits passing in the night."
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 27, 2018 at 7:31 pm
Come to pretty much the same thing, scripturally speaking.
Boru
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 27, 2018 at 7:33 pm
Ramen.
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 27, 2018 at 7:50 pm
(This post was last modified: November 27, 2018 at 8:09 pm by YahwehIsTheWay.)
(November 27, 2018 at 6:56 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Fair enough, but you have to remember that Matthew had an agenda - he was trying to equate (more or less) Jesus with Moses, so it would have been understandable for him to fabricate the sojourn into Egypt.
As for the bit about 'came into the house', there is clearly a time gap. The wise men came to Herod in Jerusalem and asked about the infant, then Herod had a bit of a chin wag with 'all the chief priests and scribes of the people'. It should have taken a few days at least to get them together, then figure a day for the confab, then maybe a half day for the Three Wise Men to go the 6 miles to Bethlehem. It isn't unreasonable to expect that Mary and Company found better accommodation between the birth and the visit. The text says Jesus was born in the stable, not that the family stayed there for any great length of time.
Boru
Not a bad apologetic but the narrative by Luke has Mary conduct business at the temple and return immediately to Nazareth, not go into Egypt.
The home as a rental might work but I'm still fuzzy on why Matt's version had them consider returning to Jerusalem if they lived in Nazareth. After all, once the census was concluded (some 10 years after Herod died!), there was no reason to even consider going to Jerusalem ...unless that was their home and Nazareth was a relocation necessitated by avoiding Herod Archeleus. The story makes no sense if they had lived in Nazareth all their lives outside their trip to Egypt.
The text of Matthew reads as lived in Bethlehem, fled to Egypt and came to settle in Nazareth.
Here's the passage in Matthew that doesn't support the idea that their hometown was Nazareth
Matthew 2:21-23
Quote:And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Now, my question if I wasn't clear, is why go back to Bethlehem at all? Why not just go straight back to your hometown in the first place? And this passage reads like he came to Nazareth for the first time, not returned home. I maintain this passage makes no sense if Nazareth was their hometown and Bethlehem was just a journey for a census (that, by the way, wouldn't happen for another 10 years).
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™: True Christian is a Trademark of the Landover Baptist Church. I have no affiliation with this fine group of True Christians ™ because I can't afford their tithing requirements but would like to be. Maybe someday the Lord will bless me with enough riches that I am able to.
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 27, 2018 at 8:27 pm
They had to work in the line in Micah 5 about Bethlehem being the home of a great leader.
(Xhristards studiously avoid the part about how he was supposed to defeat the Assyrians in the 8th century BC.)
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 27, 2018 at 10:15 pm
(November 27, 2018 at 8:27 pm)Minimalist Wrote: They had to work in the line in Micah 5 about Bethlehem being the home of a great leader.
(Xhristards studiously avoid the part about how he was supposed to defeat the Assyrians in the 8th century BC.)
[Out of character]
And this is the problem with a story that was cobbled together from earlier myths and prophecies, elaborated upon by different authors working independently of each other.
"You don't need facts when you got Jesus." -Pastor Deacon Fred, Landover Baptist Church
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 30, 2018 at 1:46 pm
(November 27, 2018 at 5:41 pm)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: One of the great, unsung miracles of the Lord is how he manages to be two places at once, sometimes moving in opposite direction. We see an example of this great miracle in Matthew and Luke.
One of the questions people have about our glorious lord is how he could be "of Nazareth" and yet born in Bethlehem at the same time. Matthew and Luke both offer explanations of their own.
Luke has his family from Nazareth and he was born in Bethlehem and returned to Nazareth.
Matthew has his family from Bethlehem, they go to Egypt and then he came to settle in Nazareth.
Matthew Chapter 2
Quote:Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem...
...And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
...When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:...
...And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
TA DA! Born in Bethlehem? Check! Called "of Nazareth"? Check!
Notice how they came into the "house". "THE house" specifically. No stable. No shepherds. No manger. It was their house. That's where they lived.
Notice also how when Joseph is returning from Egypt, he doesn't go home to Nazareth but rather comes to settle there as an alternative. Had he been following Luke's narrative, that the family only went to Bethlehem to register for a census, there would have been no cause to even consider going back to Bethlehem. Instead, he avoids going home to Bethlehem because a son of Herod reigns there. Better to settle in Nazareth where a ...um... different son of Herod reigned.
Anyway, on to Luke's Jesus.
Luke Chapters 1-2
Quote:...And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary...
...And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David...
...And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn...
...And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
TA DA! Same accomplishment but done in reverse with no trip to Egypt.
Checkmate, atheists!
 what a douche..
Do did you just copy and paste this or did you literally forge, fabricate, falsely represent the bible passages yourself?
I don't know anyone who would look at the hodgepodge cherry picked straw man mess you have compiled and also be brave enough to stand behind this false amalgamation of verses and claim the effort. No one in the know that is.. however I can see someone who thinks these are legit representation of verses like someone who don't/hasn't ever read the bible but this quote looks closes enough to fool a fool..
I can see someone accepting that.. but here's the thing sport. I just called you on your BS. You whole argument is BS as you misquoted misrepersented the bible.
As far as where Jesus is from He is from Nazareth. which was an out post town who's biggest claim to fame was is was hoe to a garrison of soldiers as it was kinda at a cross roads. and one garrison posted here could cover several hot spots.
This is where Jesus/Joseph called home this is where they lived.
Judea was like the prefecture or self contained state of the empire.. So yes jesus was from nazareth which is in judea.
Where was jesus born? bethlehem. Why isn't he known for being born there? let me ask if you parents were american but were posted or served in the army in japan and you were born in japan would that make you a japanese citizen? no You are still an american unless you parents defected to japan. This happens all the time right now and we do not leave out children in those countries. As they are born to american citizens. As it was Jesus was born in bethlehem stayed as long as they needed for mary to travel and left because they found out herod wanted him dead. so they fled to egypt.. If you took you kid to mexico does it make him or you a mexican? nor did fleeing to egypt make jesus or his family egyptians...
Once all of that foolishness was done.. they returned home to nazareth which is where they identified home.
It's real simple to understand if you put it in today's terms. If you call "X" home you and prego wife goes somewhere on business have a kid out of country the kid identifies with you and your nationality, even if you make another stop in another country first.
what the problem is?
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RE: Matt and Luke: Ships Passing in the Night
November 30, 2018 at 2:00 pm
The problem is you are a fucking idiot with no reading comprehension skills.
Nothing new there, dripshit.
These were independent stories derived from a common source ( known euphemistically as "mark" ) for different audiences in different places at different times. Only a turd jesus freak like you would think that you, with your borderline illiterate ways, could "reconcile" them when the original editors had no such intention.
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