Is tolerance intolerant?

[Amarok]

So his thread has devolved into a bunch of whining and story telling nice

[no one]

You expected something different?

[Amarok]

You expected something different?

No but I can hope

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[tackattack]

Whining about whining, how original. Feel free to solve humanities problem for us or at least address any point anyone has made.

[bennyboy]

The problem is that some traditions conflict with each other, or are considered an offense just by existing in the same place. Confederate memorials are a secular example of that-- statues don't really do harm, but if you want to get excited enough and paint it as implied aggression and so on, it's not very hard to get there. I doubt we'd argue that I can show pride in my German heritage by wearing a Nazi uniform to school every day-- even though the actual harm done to others is non-existent. I couldn't wear shirts with very offending images of Jesus or Muhammad. I doubt you'd want my kid showing up in school with Satanic imagery, demanding to be allowed to show depictions of a ritual sacrifice at the holiday pageant.

So to some degree, there's really no way to make rules to cover everything. "You didn't SAY I couldn't slaughter a mouse at school!" We have to depend on civic principles of toleration, but also of understanding offense.

I'd say in the US, the sense of civil unity is so fractured that people just don't care about each other. If most people can find a way-- ANY way-- to make the world turn around them for a day, they're likely to do it. It seems to me that unless the population is unified by a very important goal-- say, a war with China or a massive plague or something, this is unlikely to change.

That was one of the biggest advantages of religion-- that it gave very different people a sense of unity so long as they showed up at the same church on Sunday. Now-- there really is nothing to unify us except for our mutual distrust and dislike of each other.

[Rev. Rye]

Pretty unlikely, as Kwanzaa isn’t a Muslim holiday.

Boru

It's an African holiday.  Many Muslims celebrate Kwanzaa and Ramadan.  Maybe you're thinking of Hanukkah that the Muslims wouldn't observe.

Actually, it's an African-American holiday that was more or less created as a Black Power alternative to Christmas (by a radical who ended up in jail on torture and false imprisonment charges, which explains why many black families don't celebrate it). And, of course, since the 1990s, it's been more or less a supplement to Christmas that black families may or may not celebrate. To be honest, apart from my research for this post, my most substantive education of Kwanzaa was from that special episode of Rugrats where Susie's aunt railroads the Carmichaels into celebrating Kwanzaa and we celebrate the black experience through their lives, so I may not be the best authority on Kwanzaa practice, but it seems like it's shed its founder's radicalism.

Yeah, funny thing about Kwanzaa is it's pretty much based on cultural appropriation: the Kinara is pretty much a ripoff of the Jewish menorah with two candles removed and the remaining seven in the Red, Green, and Black, which, to be fair, isn't really cultural appropriation), deliberately placed around Christmas, and most of the vocabulary around it is in Swahili, which is from the exact opposite side of Africa that their ancestors were taken from (and seems to have a level of Arabic influence on par with the borrowed "non-Germanic" parts of English, if you're into linguistic purity.) Anyone who insists that cultural appropriation is inherently/automatically bad and still celebrates Kwanzaa really needs to explain themselves.

[T0 Th3 M4X]

It's an African holiday.  Many Muslims celebrate Kwanzaa and Ramadan.  Maybe you're thinking of Hanukkah that the Muslims wouldn't observe.

Actually, it's an African-American holiday that was more or less created as a Black Power alternative to Christmas (by a radical who ended up in jail on torture and false imprisonment charges, which explains why many black families don't celebrate it). And, of course, since the 1990s, it's been more or less a supplement to Christmas that black families may or may not celebrate. To be honest, apart from my research for this post, my most substantive education of Kwanzaa was from that special episode of Rugrats where Susie's aunt railroads the Carmichaels into celebrating Kwanzaa and we celebrate the black experience through their lives, so I may not be the best authority on Kwanzaa practice, but it seems like it's shed its founder's radicalism.

Yeah, funny thing about Kwanzaa is it's pretty much based on cultural appropriation: the Kinara is pretty much a ripoff of the Jewish menorah with two candles removed and the remaining seven in the Red, Green, and Black, which, to be fair, isn't really cultural appropriation), deliberately placed around Christmas, and most of the vocabulary around it is in Swahili, which is from the exact opposite side of Africa that their ancestors were taken from (and seems to have a level of Arabic influence on par with the borrowed "non-Germanic" parts of English, if you're into linguistic purity.) Anyone who insists that cultural appropriation is inherently/automatically bad and still celebrates Kwanzaa really needs to explain themselves.

Sure, and lots of Muslims recognize it so I don't see what your point is.  Lots of Muslims come from Africa and there are even American Muslims that migrate to Africa.   Approximately 1/3 of the world's Muslim population is on the continent of Africa.  Really though, anybody can choose to celebrate it.

[The Grand Nudger]

You'd probably have to live in the shadow of confederate monuments to understand the harm they do.  It's shit like that, that makes us distrust each other.  You can be fairly confident that a Statue Enthusiast™ won't have your back unless you're the right shade of lipstick.

[Rev. Rye]

Sure, and lots of Muslims recognize it so I don't see what your point is.  Lots of Muslims come from Africa and there are even American Muslims that migrate to Africa.   Approximately 1/3 of the world's Muslim population is on the continent of Africa.  Really though, anybody can choose to celebrate it.

My point is it's based in nationalism (specifically African-American nationalism; I legitimately can't find information about people in Africa actually celebrating it) instead of religion, therefore, not a Muslim holiday.