My Escatological Vision

[dqualk]

You're asking me to respect a belief that the supernatural exists? Like ghosts, warlocks, witches, zombies, Harry Potter and such? Sorry, can't do that. I refuse to respect those beliefs and quite frankly I'm not going to respect the people that hold them.

Dotard... poor you, you really believe that you and your tiny group of atheists are the only intelligent rational people on Earth don't you? How sad and delusional. I do not make that claim that there are no well meaning intelligent atheists, I am not so arrogant. I feel for those arrogant ignorant people who think they are the only right ones, and treat anyone with differing opinions with disdain and disrespect. I have the great respect for any man who is truly seeking truth in charity, whether he is athesit, Muslim, Buddhist or Christian.

Obviously you believe this God character to be part of reality. Why?

One can arrive at the conclusion that there is a God using the natural light of reason. Granted that one must accept certain facts as a-priori like you have an intrinsic value and that there is a right and a wrong. Now this is fairly similar to accepting that you exist, which is funny becuase in a way atheists even deny that. Atheism is a delusion, it says ultimately I do not exist, I am really just random reactions brought about by colliding atoms. We know we exist, and we know we are of value, real intrinsic value, not just relative value. You see when one postulates that the universe makes sense and that there is meaning he arrives at the conclusion that there is an Unmoved Mover to the material realm, and an Unmoved Mover of sorts within the metaphysical realm, in the metaphysical realm this God gives us meaning, a soul, reason and a purpose. Santa Clause bears the marks of an entirely different sort, so does the spagehtti monster and what ever silly devices people invent to make themselves fill good about belittleing a perfectly legitimate worldview. This is only an arguement for Theism. Once you arrive at this conclusion there is a whole different set of distinctions and observations to be made that sound stupid when one has not accepted Theism as true, before one arrives at the belief in Christ. It would be like trying to explain evolution to a child when they don't have a decent understanding of science. They will conclude that it is rediculous that we came from monkeys, but this is clearly not what the theory of evolution teaches but it can sound that rediculous if you do not go through the process of learning about it. So its useless for me to try and talk about Christianity until one has acquired a healthy respect for Theism in general.

Ultimately Christianity and Theism teach that death and nihil is not the final say, it is not our ultimate destiny; rather, life is our final destiny. If you choose to BELIEVE that death is certainly the final say, that is your business. Do not delude youself with lies that Theism is pure foolishness and only stupid people beleive it. The fact is many of the greatest minds of all time were Theist, to this very day. Yes there is a new phenomonon that is taking root in universities that is atheism, but I doubt it will last to much longer. Theism is a tried and true way to view the world. It relies upon the axiom that there is an intrinsic value, which forces the rational mind to conclude that there is a metaphysical realm that is not subject to the same temporality that we experience. If you would like I could list some of the great minds who were theist, in any century since the beginning of recorded history. I do not mind people saying that Theism does not make as much sense to me. Or I choose not to believe in it because it seems less probably to me, but to act like its absolutely foolish just exposes that you are ignorant and arrogant. Once again, I do not say that all atheist are crazy or delusional, I have great respect for some, many are my dear friends, and I have some respect for Bertrand Russel and David Hume, two great minds. But I also have a great respect for Theists like Leibniz, Galileo, Newton, Tesla and Einstein.

Atheism is the real delusion which claims that we ultimately don't exist, and that there is no intrinsic value, that there is no right or wrong. I know better than that. I know I exist. I think therefore I am. I know that I have value, its a-priori to my entire being. I know that there is a right and a wrong. I do not delude myself into believeing that I am ultimately the result of random atom collisions.

[OnlyNatural]

I was not born into it. Many people convert to Christianity from various religions. My ancestors were pagans who converted to Christianity, Africa is converting as a massive rate, and Asia is converting slowly.

I wasn't talking about your 'ancestors.' I meant your parents, your immediate family, did they raise you Catholic/Christian?

One can arrive at the conclusion that there is a God using the natural light of reason. Granted that one must accept certain facts as a-priori like you have an intrinsic value and that there is a right and a wrong.

These are not 'facts.' They are your assumptions, which happen to fit in nicely with your own supernatural beliefs. Value is not intrinsic, humans come to their own conclusions about what is valuable. Morality is not absolute, otherwise you would believe slavery and child sacrifice to be acceptable, because your Bible says it is. Ideas about right and wrong evolve as we consider moral issues critically.

Atheism is a delusion, it says ultimately I do not exist, I am really just random reactions brought about by colliding atoms. We know we exist.

Atheism says no such thing. Atheism is only a rejection of belief in God. Of COURSE we exist. We are biological organisms living in a natural world. Our existence makes sense without the unnecessary assumption of a god.

You see when one postulates that the universe makes sense and that there is meaning he arrives at the conclusion that there is an Unmoved Mover to the material realm, and an Unmoved Mover of sorts within the metaphysical realm, in the metaphysical realm this God gives us meaning, a soul, reason and a purpose.

What a load of nonsense. If someone else wants to tackle this, go ahead.

Listen I will never believe that what makes me me is contained solely within material.

Then I invite you to give yourself a nice, thorough lobotomy. Let me know how that works out for you.

I have a firm belief in my soul, and you can not prove to me that there is no soul, so do not say there is not a soul as if you know. I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY YOU SHOULD BELIEVE IN THE SOUL BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT DISPROVE ITS EXISTANCE. However, I am saying that you should not go about proclaiming the non-existance of the soul, and expect me to believe it.

I did not say 'there is no soul.' But you ARE essentially just saying 'you can't disprove the existence of a soul, therefore it exists.' If this is your only reason for firmly believing in a soul, then I'm sorry, but that's quite pathetic.

Present us some evidence on which you base this 'firm belief in a soul,' other than the Bible and your own subjective feelings. Then maybe we can have an intelligent conversation. Because so far, the empirical real-world evidence is not in your favor.

Ultimately Christianity and Theism teach that death and nihil is not the final say, it is not our ultimate destiny; rather, life is our final destiny. If you choose to BELIEVE that death is certainly the final say, that is your business.

Death is final, as scary as that is. And this is why atheists appreciate life more, not less; we realize that this life is all we have, and we try to live it to the fullest. Ironically, this world and this life actually has less value if you only see it as a waiting room for the next life.

Theism is a tried and true way to view the world.

No, it's not. Maybe in the days when we had no other way to explain things. But like it or not, science is rapidly making religious explanations and offerings obsolete. Unfortunately, there will always be individuals looking for an easy answer, and for that, religion is the ultimate cop out.

[Zen Badger]

Atheism is the real delusion which claims that we ultimately don't exist,

Wrong, We have evidence that we exist.

and that there is no intrinsic value,

Also wrong, since there is no god we appreciate even more the value of a person.

that there is no right or wrong.

Again, wrong. There is no objective right or wrong, only subjective.
It is we who decide what is good and what is bad. Not some fictional god.

I know better than that. I know I exist. I think therefore I am. I know that I have value, its a-priori to my entire being. I know that there is a right and a wrong.

And you don't need a god to do that.

I do not delude myself into believeing that I am ultimately the result of random atom collisions.

Neither do we buddy, since evolution is not driven by random atomic collisions.

In conclusion, you have a pretty fucked up idea of what atheism is by the sound of it.

[dqualk]

No they did not raise me Catholic Christian.

My Bible does not support child sacrifce or slavery. The OT is a story of what happened, not always what is permissible or allowed. And Jewish slavery is different in every sorts from modern slavery. And the OT condemns any human sacrifice. Human sacrifice only happens once in the Bible by a Jew and it is never endorsed, in fact the only time a value judgement is made on the matter it is condemned.

Yeah but we don't really exist as individuals. We are actually just atoms banging around, and for what every reason we are born into a delusion that we actually are a unique individual with our own personess. Really are personness is just an invented category for the sake of our delusion, as there is no form of person floating about in a metaphysical realm that doesnt exist.

Why would I harm the vehicle of my soul. My soul cannot express itself within the temporal realm apart from its accidental material, that allows the rational soul to operate.

I in all caps said I am not trying to prove the existance of the soul, I accept it a priori like I accept my own existance. This is perfectly consistent and rational. The only insane thing to do is to reject you existance. My evidence is I think therefore I am. I can not prove that I am, I just know its true, and this knowledge is necessary to acquire any more real knowledge. Without that axiom you reduce everything to subjectivism. With the assumption of existance right and wrong etc one can now seek out objective truths, and indeed arrive at them.

I do not see this life as a waiting room for my next life, I see life only. This life will pass seamlessly into the next. What you do in this life effects what happens later in this life, and in the same way what oyu do in this life effects what happens in the next, so to speak, also.


The fact is science will never be able to answer or approach the questions that religion answer. Science cannot prove or disprove existance or intrinsic value. It is useless in that regard. It is very useful in many others.

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@Zen We do not have conclusive evidence that we exist. The evidence that we exist is about as strong as the evidence that there is a God. For all we know we are just atoms, or we are just a dream or we are just a computer program.

You appreciate their passing changing relative temporary value.

There is an objective right and wrong. For example if some evil bastard rapes and kills a child he IS evil <period> Don't try and tell me your insanity that he is not truly objective evil.

Evolution is driven by chance when it is not guided by God. This is a fact. Clearly you do not know what atheism is. All things happen by chance within an atheistic system.

[OnlyNatural]

dqualk,

All your talk about the soul and the metaphysical realm is pure speculation. You have no evidence for it, and you don't think any evidence is even required. You just 'know' it's true, you just accept it 'a priori.' That is not how you approach a rational discussion.

[Jaysyn]

My Bible does not support ... slavery.

Actually, yeah it does. Old Testament & New. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by yet another bible-thumper that is ignorant in regard to their "good book".

Old Testament

Slavery was customary in ancient times, and some forms of servitude are condoned by the Torah[6]. Hebrew legislation maintained kinship rights (Exodus 21:3, 9, Leviticus 25:41, 47-49, 54, providing for Hebrew indentured servants), marriage rights (Exodus 21:4, 10-11, providing for a Hebrew daughter contracted into a marriage), personal legal rights relating to physical protection and protection from breach of conduct (Exodus 21:8, providing for a Hebrew daughter contracted into a marriage, Exodus 21:20-21, 26-27, providing for Hebrew or foreign servants of any kind, and Leviticus 25:39-41, providing for Hebrew indentured servants), freedom of movement, and access to liberty (Exodus 21:8, 11, providing for a Hebrew daughter contracted into a marriage, Leviticus 25:40-45, 48, 54, providing for Hebrew indentured servants, and Deuteronomy 15:1, 12; 23:15, providing for Hebrew or foreign servants of any kind).

New Testament

In the Epistle of Paul to Titus, Paul appears to support the servitude of slaves: "Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior."

All things happen by chance within an atheistic system.

Oh you're one of those kinds of bible-thumpers. I shouldn't have even wasted my time in response.

[Dotard]

[/quote]

Dotard... poor you, you really believe that you and your tiny group of atheists are the only intelligent rational people on Earth don't you?

Where did I say that I believed that?

How sad and delusional. I do not make that claim that there are no well meaning intelligent atheists, I am not so arrogant.

I didn't make the claim there are no well meaning intelligent theists. There are many things I am quite intelligent about and there are things I am a numb-skull about. I'm a misogynist and, apparently, a homophobe. Not very intelligent positions to hold. But I hold them nontheless and they stem from my knee-jerk reactionary side and are, I'm guessing, emotion-based. Not rational nor intelligent.

Same goes for you fuks. I'm sure you hold very inteligent positions about many things. The existance of magic, ghosts, spirits (holy or otherwise), witches and the like is not one of them.

I feel for those arrogant ignorant people who think they are the only right ones,

Like catholics? Christians? Muslims? Jews? etc. etc. etc. etc.?

.....and treat anyone with differing opinions with disdain and disrespect.

I won't treat you with distain or disrespect, I just won't respect such nonsensical magical beliefs nor your position of holding them. Do you honestly 'respect' the beiefs of those who say there is an evil galactic overlord who controls the destiny of our immortal souls? Would you 'respect' those beliefs and allow prayers to this overlord to be a public event before high school football games? Would you respect those beliefs and allow open proselytization in public schools. How about a Scientologist Minister to lead the US senate in prayers? It is not distain or disrespect to speak out against such bullshit when it is perpetrated by christians.
When a muslim says it is his God-given belief to behead the infidel, are you really going to respect that and stfu? To do other wise would be showing distain and disrepect to the man who holds that belief would it not?

I maintain 'respect' is not as black and white as you seem to be making out. Apathy sets in the middle of those two. I won't respect you and your silly beliefs. I respect you as a person, I'm sure your a nice fella, but I will not respect you as a purveyor of the beliefs and religion of ancient, illiterate, desert dwelling, goat herding, ignorant old men.

I have the great respect for any man who is truly seeking truth in charity.....

What if I am seeking only truth without the charity part? Do I still maintain your "Great Respect"?

One can arrive at the conclusion that there is a God using the natural light of reason. Granted that one must accept certain facts as a-priori....

I may be wrong however I think if you are accepting 'things' as a-priori then that 'light of reason' just got dimmer.

....like you have an intrinsic value...

To whom?

...and that there is a right and a wrong.

Objective? If so then your 'light of reason' just got extinguished.

Atheism is a delusion, it says ultimately I do not exist, I am really just random reactions brought about by colliding atoms.

So if you are a random collection of atoms brought about by collisions then somehow you don't exist?
Put that one back in your ass where you pulled it out of please.

...we know we are of value, real intrinsic value, not just relative value.

"We" do? My value is relative. Not intrinsic. Just like yours.

blah blah blah metaphysical yadda yadda yadda intrinsic value blah blah blah blah I know blah blah I know blah blah I know blah blah.....

.......I do not delude myself into believing...

You have already done that sir. Quite deluded yourself.

[Welsh cake]

Just because you feel there is no God in your heart doesn't make it true.

As rationalists and freethinkers we've never once claimed that, how we both feel about reality is irrelevant in any case, except we can't overlook our hearts pump blood, so as far as biology is concerned your claim is refuted.

Atheism is a delusion, it says ultimately I do not exist, I am really just random reactions brought about by colliding atoms.

Atheism is the real delusion which claims that we ultimately don't exist, and that there is no intrinsic value, that there is no right or wrong.

You're the only delusion one here dqualk, you've been told time and again atheism is not a worldview. When are you ever going to learn that it makes no claims about reality?

However, I am saying that you should not go about proclaiming the non-existance of the soul, and expect me to believe it.

Good, because otherwise you'd be shifting the burden of proof onto your audience and also proclaiming the existance of the soul, and expecting us to accept it without any evidence at all is simply unrealistic on your part.

I'll contine you to REASON with my RATIONAL soul.

By your own omission you don't know what either of those words mean. You haven't even bothered to provide a proper ontological argument for the "soul", "spirit" or "ghost" or whatever you seem to think it is.

Atheism is a delusion, it says ultimately I do not exist, I am really just random reactions brought about by colliding atoms.

Atheism is the real delusion which claims that we ultimately don't exist, and that there is no intrinsic value, that there is no right or wrong. I know better than that. I know I exist. I think therefore I am. I know that I have value, its a-priori to my entire being. I know that there is a right and a wrong. I do not delude myself into believeing that I am ultimately the result of random atom collisions.

You are pathetic. You are mindlessly repeating yourself over and over again like a broken record. I'm not taking your bait anymore. Go and learn what atheism means.

[dqualk]

dqualk,

All your talk about the soul and the metaphysical realm is pure speculation. You have no evidence for it, and you don't think any evidence is even required. You just 'know' it's true, you just accept it 'a priori.' That is not how you approach a rational discussion.

One must accept certain a-priori beliefs, like I exist, which also cannont be proven.

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@Jaysyn Indentured servants are different than slaves. The Bible is consistent in teaching, especially the New Testament which supercedes the old, that all men are children of God. Paul is simply recognizing reality, and giving his advise when in a certain situation. The Bible clearly teaches that man cannot be property, as it states that we are all created in the image of God and how can one put a price on the image of God. Further all Christians are equal within Christianity, this is clearly taught by Paul who says there is no longer slave nor freeman but only children of God.

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@ Dotard

Where did I say that I believed that?

You said right here, "You're asking me to respect a belief that the supernatural exists? Like ghosts, warlocks, witches, zombies, Harry Potter and such? Sorry, can't do that. I refuse to respect those beliefs [b]and quite frankly I'm not going to respect the people that hold them."

There is a perfectly legitimate and rational reason why homosexuality is wrong.

Like catholics? Christians? Muslims? Jews? etc. etc. etc. etc.?

The Church teaches that all men are children of God and that we all have the natural light of reason so we can all find common ground. Further the Church teaches that we should be kind and understanding of all people, the Good Samaritan is a perfect example of this. At the same time we believe that we are correct, but those Christians who use their belief that they are correct as a way to be arrogant, they are disobeying the spirit of Christ, as the Church teaches that any good thing we do is only a result of responding to God's first action of giving us grace. In that sense we can do no good thing apart from God's grace. Christ and the Church teach that if they are not against us then they are for us. Christ recognized righteousness in pagans, for example he said that no man in Israel had greater faith than the Roman who asked Jesus to heal his servant. Christ said forgive them for they know not what they do.

It is true that some Christians use their faith as a way to be arrogant. In this regard they are being terrible witnesses. The Church recognizes that there are good things within all religions and even within atheism. The Church also recognizes taht God is not bound by the visible boundaries of the Church, becuase God knows the condition of man's heart and what he would have done in any given situation. For this reason it is certainly possible that God's salvation has extened beyond the visible walls of the Church.

I resepect all thouse who seek truth in charity. I have no respect for uncharitable actions, whether they are commited by Christians, Muslims or atheists.

Also if you are going to be critical about Christianity than be real about what we believe. I understand it is far easier to attack a straw man but at some point you have to grow up and confront what Christ really teaches through His Church on earth, love your enemy, good is good in and of itself, be humble etc. It is true that to often people abuse the name of Christ and scandalize the Church, but at some point you have to see through men's failures and see the truth of what Christ teaches. His message is of love and peace, simply. Christ teaches that all of the law is summarized in this, love God and love your neighbor as yourself, he further states the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do to you.

What if I am seeking only truth without the charity part? Do I still maintain your "Great Respect"?

I respect you as a child of God, of whom Jesus loved so dearly that he suffered, died and was buried, however, I do not respect your uncharitable acts, hate the evil love the person.

I may be wrong however I think if you are accepting 'things' as a-priori then that 'light of reason' just got dimmer.

With respect, there is no reason unless you a priori accept that it exists, as there is no way to prove that there is reason.

to whom?

You were created with value, and you were further purchased at the highest price, the life of Christ. It is in your very nature that you are valuable, and you know it, even if you just beleive it as a delusion.

your light of reason just got extinguished

Reason rests upon a-priori assumptions.

So if you are a random collection of atoms brought about by collisions then somehow you don't exist?
Put that one back in your ass where you pulled it out of please.

No you as a person do not exist, within atheism. There is no form of you floating about in a metaphysical realm. You are a delusion created by the chance collision of atoms.

For the record, and let be heard that, you call me delusional becaues I believe that raping a child is evil always and everywhere. Be it known that I am delusional becuase I believe that I have a rational soul. that makes me uniquely a true individual who can actually will things of my own power. I am delusional becuase I belive I have a true will, that emanates from my soul, and not from random collisions. Be it known that I am delusional because I believe that humans are truly in and of themselves beautiful, even if they can be radically depraved at times. Mozarts requiem Mass is truly beautiful, not just beautiful in a delluded sense. Be it known that I am delusional because I believe that I love becuase of beauty, not that something is beautiful becuase I love it. No! You are delusional for beliveing that there is no intrinsic value, that love is not real. Love is real, I know it, I feel it, it is more real to me than this keyboard I am typing on. I trust my reason before my senses, and my reason SHOUTS at me that there is an intrinsic value, that Love is real.

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You're the only delusion one here dqualk, you've been told time and again atheism is not a worldview. When are you ever going to learn that it makes no claims about reality?

This is what I call a classic cop out. You have a different interpretation of atheist than I do. My definition of atheism is: those who do not believe in the reality of God, and instead believe in materialism only. There may be a more proper word, like am atheistic materialist or something, but for the sake of this forum I am using the word atheist in such a way. If it bothers you so much I will gladly began using a different term if you can give me a more appropriate one. Thanks.

I only repeat myself when the same baseless charge is levied against me.

[Rayaan]

My definition of atheism is: those who do not believe in the reality of God, and instead believe in materialism only.

Only the first part is true but not the one that I crossed out.

Atheists could believe in angels, devils, life after death, psychics (which I don't believe in), and a lot of other extraordinary things even though they are much less likely to believe in those kind of stuff since they don't even believe in God in the first place. Edit: Also, I don't know any atheists who believe in things of that nature.