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"Hail Satan?" (2019)
#91
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 15, 2019 at 9:45 pm)EgoDeath Wrote:
(May 15, 2019 at 5:39 pm)Belaqua Wrote: Satanism "was a thing" at various times. I agree that LaVey organized it in a way that it had never been organized before. 

It was indeed a term used by Christians to attack people they suspected. There's a long interesting book from 1896 devoted to working out who really is and isn't a devil-worshipper. 

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devil-Worship_in_France

It's true that Masons and others were accused of being Satanists, but weren't really. On the other hand, there were people who worshipped Satan, who were known as Satanists, and didn't reject the label. 

Again, I think you are using a very specific definition of the word which sees LaVey type people as the only true Satanists. This is of course the definition we would expect to find on the web site of LaVey's organization. Still, people who aren't devoted to LaVey tend to use the word in a more general sense, and have done so for a long time. And not only as a term applied to others, like pagan or heretic. This is supported by the sources I have given you.

Okay, please cite me a source of a group that called themselves "Satanists" before LaVey. I'll wait. This has nothing to do with my affinity for "codified philosophy," this has to do with your direct and repeated misuse of the word.

(May 15, 2019 at 5:43 pm)prhill Wrote: You clearly have not read one word I have said so you have wasted my time and do not care about that facts


Says the moron who refuses to throw a link my way. We have already established that you've been wrong about a few things... Let's review.

Satanism is an atheistic philosophy. They do not believe in supernatural beings or deities.

A Church of Satan forum does not exist.

You understand little about the nature of showmanship used by LaVey and his peers.

A DIRECT QUOTE from the CoS website, on the FAQ page, in response to the question "I am having experiences with demons or I feel that someone is attacking me on the supernatural level. What can you do to help me?"

CoS says, and I quote
Quote:Satanists do not believe in demons or other supernatural beings, nor do we believe in spells. Seek help from local mental health professionals to assist you to get over these delusions.

You are quite the fucking moron, I do admit.

Instead of calling people names why dont you face facts like we do? Name calling is what people do when they dont have the facts. I have given sources and facts and you you do is make excuses like saying its showmanship. Well if LaVeyan satanism is showmanship and a joke like you keep saying not to be taken seriously then that says it all
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#92
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 15, 2019 at 9:45 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: please cite me a source of a group that called themselves "Satanists" before LaVey.

Ah, that's a different question. I'm not sure whether there were groups who referred to themselves as "Satanist." They might have called themselves something else. Nonetheless, they prayed to Satan, made offerings to him, attempted to get help from him, etc. They believed he was real and did their best to work with him. 

But if your sole criterion here is "did they call themselves by that label," that's somewhat different. 

As for people who are known to have done these things, you can look up Stanislas de Guaita, Gérard Anaclet Vincent Encausse (aka Papus), Joséphin Péladan, Pierre Eugène Michel Vintras, Abbé Joseph-Antoine Boullan (a defrocked priest), and Oswald Wirth. Huysmans, of course, did the most to make Satanistic rituals well-known in France. Whether he was ever a member of a group, or just wrote about them, is difficult to know. He certainly seemed to know a lot. But openly confessing to being a worshipper of Satan had social consequences that many people didn't want to face. 

Then there are the serious people at the time who weren't Satanists but reported what they saw. Joanny Bricaud would be one of the most important of these. 

I've left out the people like Gabriel Jogand-Pagès who called themselves dangerous devil-worshippers as a sort of tease, or a way to get publicity. 

More ambiguous were the many (shall we say) "alternative" religions or sects which appeared out of the roots of Christianity. These included Gnostic chapels and others. As always, it's hard to say exactly what their beliefs were. Worship of Satan was still seen as dangerous to society and very few members of these small groups would speak up about their practices. Since a number of the people who attended or founded these smaller groups were also involved with Black Masses and other devil-related rituals, there is reason to believe that many of the practices overlapped. 

So yes, if we limit the discussion here in two ways, you may have a point. If we say 1) we can only call a group Satanist if it has the word "Satanist" in its name, and 2) it can only be called Satanist if it has some sort of codified Satanic philosophy, then maybe LaVey's version is the only group which meets these two requirements. 

The groups I have heard of tended to call themselves other names, that didn't have "Satanist" on their calling card, and their philosophy was still largely that of Catholicism, though they chose to call on those forces which mainstream Catholics would eschew.

As far as I can tell, the only source you've given us for your view is that of the web site to LaVey's group. Are there other sources you can point us to that would support your position? I'm willing to look elsewhere.

Added later:

Just now I looked at the web site of the Church of Satan. I see that they repeatedly use the symbol first drawn by de Guaita, one of the people I mentioned above.

This, from the very first part of the web site, is instructive:

Quote:...we are the first above-ground organization in history openly dedicated to the acceptance of Man’s true nature—that of a carnal beast, living in a cosmos that is indifferent to our existence. To us, Satan is the symbol that best suits the nature of we who are carnal by birth—people who feel no battles raging between our thoughts and feelings, we who do not embrace the concept of a soul imprisoned in a body. He represents pride, liberty, and individualism—qualities often defined as Evil by those who worship external deities, who feel there is a war between their minds and emotions.

Note that they don't claim to be the first Satanists. They claim to be the first "above-ground" such organization, "openly" dedicated to these ideas. This seems to imply that there were any number of other such groups, though they were below ground and closed. That's quite believable, and not quite the same as what you've been saying on this thread.

There is something which, as far as I know, is new for this group: they make it clear that Satan is a symbol for them, not a real being. This is what I mean by deracinated. By reducing the titular figure to a figurehead, there are no stakes, and no skin in the game. It is the American version: coffee without caffeine, beer without alcohol, sex without the contact of two bodies. Previous Satanists -- or, if you don't like that word, Satan-worshippers, Satan-believers, those who sincerely tried to sell their souls to the devil, actually believed.
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#93
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 15, 2019 at 10:46 pm)prhill Wrote: Instead of calling people names why dont you face facts like we do? Name calling is what people do when they dont have the facts. I have given sources and facts and you you do is make excuses like saying its showmanship. Well if LaVeyan satanism is showmanship and a joke like you keep saying not to be taken seriously then that says it all

I'm here giving you direct quotes from the Church of Satan website, you have STILL NOT given me a SINGLE link. And in your mind, I'm the one avoiding the facts? Yea, I think we're done here, you are a fucking imbecile or a troll - and either way I have no more interest in interacting with you.



@Belaqua Okay dude what are we even talking about here? You are clearly uneducated on this topic and want to ramble on and on about a bunch of French devil-worshipers, occult nonsense and shit I don't care to read through. LaVey established the world's first Satanic group - period. That you fail to recognize that is not really my problem. We've established much earlier in this thread that you know NOTHING about Satanism and simply continue to refer to a bunch of occult groups as Satanists when they were nothing of the sort.

This conversation is going nowhere and we're both repeating ourselves. I'm no longer going to repeat myself, if you want to, feel free. You clearly are not done with this discussion, and you are still displaying in insane amount of ignorance on the topic.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#94
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 16, 2019 at 6:01 am)EgoDeath Wrote: This conversation is going nowhere and we're both repeating ourselves. 

I would be grateful if you would link me to a disinterested non-partisan (as it were) site which confirms your views. 

I've looked at the Church of Satan site. When it addresses topics that I happen to have studied (e.g. Milton and Blake) it isn't accurate. This calls into question for me its objectivity and trustworthiness. 

So any other help you could give me in understanding your views would be welcome.
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#95
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 16, 2019 at 6:01 am)EgoDeath Wrote:
(May 15, 2019 at 10:46 pm)prhill Wrote: Instead of calling people names why dont you face facts like we do? Name calling is what people do when they dont have the facts. I have given sources and facts and you you do is make excuses like saying its showmanship. Well if LaVeyan satanism is showmanship and a joke like you keep saying not to  be taken seriously then that says it all

I'm here giving you direct quotes from the Church of Satan website, you have STILL NOT given me a SINGLE link. And in your mind, I'm the one avoiding the facts? Yea, I think we're done here, you are a fucking imbecile or a troll - and either way I have no more interest in interacting with you.



@Belaqua Okay dude what are we even talking about here? You are clearly uneducated on this topic and want to ramble on and on about a bunch of French devil-worshipers, occult nonsense and shit I don't care to read through. LaVey established the world's first Satanic group - period. That you fail to recognize that is not really my problem. We've established much earlier in this thread that you know NOTHING about Satanism and simply continue to refer to a bunch of occult groups as Satanists when they were nothing of the sort.

This conversation is going nowhere and we're both repeating ourselves. I'm no longer going to repeat myself, if you want to, feel free. You clearly are not done with this discussion, and you are still displaying in insane amount of ignorance on the topic.



[quote pid='1909933' dateline='1558000902']
I told you exactly where all of those quotes are which BTW is interesting that you are not aware of these podcasts and magaiine since they are the top sources for Lavey satanism and also funny you do not know the names I mentioned as they are the most famous top ranking members. You seem to not know much about a cult you keep talking about. But then you also claim we should not take Laveyans seriosly as everything about them as you keep saying is all showmanship and tongue  and cheek

[/quote]
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#96
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 16, 2019 at 8:44 am)prhill Wrote: I told you exactly where all of those quotes are which BTW is interesting that you are not aware of these podcasts and magaiine since they are the top sources for Lavey satanism and also funny you do not know the names I mentioned as they are the most famous top ranking members. You seem to not know much about a cult you keep talking about. But then you also claim we should not take Laveyans seriosly as everything about them as you keep saying is all showmanship and tongue  and cheek
All I've asked for was some links. Not sure what's so hard about that.

And no, the "top sources" for Satanism are The Satanic Bible, The Satanic Scriptures and the
Church of Satan website, which states explicitly over and over that they do not believe in supernatural beings, souls, god, etc. It is a 100% materialist, naturalist philosophy.

As for members claiming they've summoned demons; yes, I have to assume that would be sarcasm, especially knowing that the CoS embraces showmanship and theatrics... LaVey once said Satanism was the first religion that openly admitted to using theatrical drama. Other religions, such as Catholicism, use theatrical drama but pretend, or maybe believe, it is all real and esoteric.

So yea, without context for what I'm hearing second or third hand, I have no other way to judge it. If you could provide me with some links and some timestamps to where these specific comments are said, we can discuss these things specifically.

Still waiting.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#97
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
@Belaqua

Why don't you go have a conversation with these people? I lurk in these forums and I'd be interested to read your interactions. They are not anti-Christian to the extent that they would dismiss your ideas out of hand. You may have some very good conversations there, and learn something along the way-- straight from the horse's mouth even.

Edit: you may even connect with them about the antinomian stuff.
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#98
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 16, 2019 at 9:49 pm)EgoDeath Wrote:
(May 16, 2019 at 8:44 am)prhill Wrote: I told you exactly where all of those quotes are which BTW is interesting that you are not aware of these podcasts and magaiine since they are the top sources for Lavey satanism and also funny you do not know the names I mentioned as they are the most famous top ranking members. You seem to not know much about a cult you keep talking about. But then you also claim we should not take Laveyans seriosly as everything about them as you keep saying is all showmanship and tongue  and cheek
All I've asked for was some links. Not sure what's so hard about that.

And no, the "top sources" for Satanism are The Satanic Bible, The Satanic Scriptures and the
Church of Satan website, which states explicitly over and over that they do not believe in supernatural beings, souls, god, etc. It is a 100% materialist, naturalist philosophy.

As for members claiming they've summoned demons; yes, I have to assume that would be sarcasm, especially knowing that the CoS embraces showmanship and theatrics... LaVey once said Satanism was the first religion that openly admitted to using theatrical drama. Other religions, such as Catholicism, use theatrical drama but pretend, or maybe believe, it is all real and esoteric.

So yea, without context for what I'm hearing second or third hand, I have no other way to judge it. If you could provide me with some links and some timestamps to where these specific comments are said, we can discuss these things specifically.

Still waiting.

I am still waiting for you to prove me wrong?? I have given you endless sources proving they are into pseudoscience, ghosts, demons and spiritual magic and reincarnation and instead of addressing all of that you admit you wont get the magazines or go to the podcasts and you adimt Laveyans are about show and not be taken seriously so which is it??
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#99
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 16, 2019 at 10:14 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: @Belaqua

Why don't you go have a conversation with these people? I lurk in these forums and I'd be interested to read your interactions. They are not anti-Christian to the extent that they would dismiss your ideas out of hand. You may have some very good conversations there, and learn something along the way-- straight from the horse's mouth even.

Edit: you may even connect with them about the antinomian stuff.

Wow! There are chat sites for EVERYBODY these days.

Thank you for introducing me! I may not be brave enough to join in, but I definitely look forward to lurking and finding out people's take on things. 

Despite some resistance on this thread, I suspect there are Satanists and other sort of "alternative" people who are fascinating to talk to. Being tied into a system of that kind, if it's more than just cos-play, seems as if it might give a richness to the world that sometimes seems lacking in a more mainstream sort of life.
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RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 16, 2019 at 10:14 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: @Belaqua

Why don't you go have a conversation with these people? I lurk in these forums and I'd be interested to read your interactions. They are not anti-Christian to the extent that they would dismiss your ideas out of hand. You may have some very good conversations there, and learn something along the way-- straight from the horse's mouth even.

Edit: you may even connect with them about the antinomian stuff.

Well, I gave it a try. 

I see where EgoDeath gets his ideas now. This video:

http://www.the600club.com/topic35280-1.html

uses the same language and makes the same points. 

No doubt there are some people in the group who go beyond what the video says. Let us hope so. It's a mishmash of barely-understood concepts half-heard from genuine systems. Just right for consumer culture. 

I used to complain that in Japan various personae are just paper-thin style. In England, for example, a skinhead has a political and social background that goes with the appearance. If you see a kid in Shinjuki dressed as a skinhead, however, it's almost certain that he has never heard of any of the background; he got the look from a page in a catalog, and might as well be dressing like Mother Theresa or an arctic explorer -- and he would, if the image appealed to him. Now I see that America is pretty close to the same state of culture-as-veneer. 

So far all I can see of LaVey-type Satanism is along these lines. A shallow philosophy entirely compatible with undergrads in state schools, with Halloween costumes added for group cohesion.
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