"Hail Satan?" (2019)

[Belacqua]

I care about the facts.

And I'm convinced you're right. It's a very interesting situation, to see that contemporary Satanists wish to deny this. 

As I think about it, it all seems like a case study in what Fredric Jameson was warning us about, when he wrote about Postmodernism close to 30 years ago. He pointed out that the Postmodern condition combines an almost total lack of historicity with, paradoxically, the practice of making every new thing out of items from the past. 

So the obvious example was in architecture, where you get traditional cornices and columns painted funky colors and entirely divorced from the rational system of which they were a part -- out of which they evolved, for good reasons. 

The Church of Satan modern guys seem to fit this exactly. It made me sad to see, in the web site's video, a gift shop Shiva on an altar shelf with more or less random stuff from other cultures. And the Shiva is being used as a symbol of chaos. 

It seems likely that the notion of chaos they're using derives from Nietzsche, who made much of it in his early work. Then by ignoring the historical roots they can call this the same thing as Shiva. But in fact those things are different -- the foundations are different and the systems in which they work are different. And one of our tasks, I'm quite sure, if we want to improve our understanding of things, is to desynonymize -- to see that superficially similar things are in fact not the same, and to conflate them is to dumb ourselves down. 

The fact that they are eager to deny their own movement's history works along with this. They can claim to be new simply by denying that there was ever anything called Satanism before, and they can claim to be sciency and rational by conveniently forgetting that not long ago at all the top Satanists were casting spells in all seriousness.

[prhill]

I care about the facts.

And I'm convinced you're right. It's a very interesting situation, to see that contemporary Satanists wish to deny this. 

As I think about it, it all seems like a case study in what Fredric Jameson was warning us about, when he wrote about Postmodernism close to 30 years ago. He pointed out that the Postmodern condition combines an almost total lack of historicity with, paradoxically, the practice of making every new thing out of items from the past. 

So the obvious example was in architecture, where you get traditional cornices and columns painted funky colors and entirely divorced from the rational system of which they were a part -- out of which they evolved, for good reasons. 

The Church of Satan modern guys seem to fit this exactly. It made me sad to see, in the web site's video, a gift shop Shiva on an altar shelf with more or less random stuff from other cultures. And the Shiva is being used as a symbol of chaos. 

It seems likely that the notion of chaos they're using derives from Nietzsche, who made much of it in his early work. Then by ignoring the historical roots they can call this the same thing as Shiva. But in fact those things are different -- the foundations are different and the systems in which they work are different. And one of our tasks, I'm quite sure, if we want to improve our understanding of things, is to desynonymize -- to see that superficially similar things are in fact not the same, and to conflate them is to dumb ourselves down. 

The fact that they are eager to deny their own movement's history works along with this. They can claim to be new simply by denying that there was ever anything called Satanism before, and they can claim to be sciency and rational by conveniently forgetting that not long ago at all the top Satanists were casting spells in all seriousness.

Great points. I dont see how they can claim satanism was not around before Lavey when I have met people who did satanic rituals before him using the black book of satan a book I have myself read. And as far as Laveyans believing in the supernatural and stuff those direct quotes I posted earlier are not from the early days so much except for the ones from the video "Satanis" that came out in the 60s. The rest are from just the last few years.

Those quotes I gave are from the highest ranking and most famous members including from Blanche Barton who gave birth to LaVey's last child and who took over the Church of Satan after he died and she was asked just a few years ago by Art Bell straight out is magic real and she said yes! Then he asked her is the supernatural real and she said yes! How much clearer could it be?

[arewethereyet]

A little off topic, but...

I was listening to a true crime show last night and the law enforcement officer who was describing the suspect said that the suspect was an 'avowed atheist' and had several Satanic symbols tattooed on his body. 'Scuse me? Was he an atheist or a Satanist? It reminded me that some people don't get it. They believe that atheist=Satanist.

[prhill]

A little off topic, but...

I was listening to a true crime show last night and the law enforcement officer who was describing the suspect said that the suspect was an 'avowed atheist' and had several Satanic symbols tattooed on his body.  'Scuse me?  Was he an atheist or a Satanist?  It reminded me that some people don't get it. They believe that atheist=Satanist.

Well some Satanists are atheists like The Satanic Temple which the documentary HAIL SATAN is about are atheists.    They embrace things like science and skepticism and fight for the separation of Church and state and human rights and stuff.  Satan is just used as a symbol by them and not as an actual being.

The Satanic Temple and the Laveyan satanists/Church of Satan are two very different things

[arewethereyet]

A little off topic, but...

I was listening to a true crime show last night and the law enforcement officer who was describing the suspect said that the suspect was an 'avowed atheist' and had several Satanic symbols tattooed on his body.  'Scuse me?  Was he an atheist or a Satanist?  It reminded me that some people don't get it. They believe that atheist=Satanist.

Well some Satanists are atheists like The Satanic Temple which the documentary HAIL SATAN is about are atheists.    They embrace things like science and skepticism and fight for the separation of Church and state and human rights and stuff.  Satan is just used as a symbol by them and not as an actual being.

The Satanic Temple and the Laveyan satanists/Church of Satan are two very different things

Yeah, I get that but one doesn't always follow the other, as you said there are different versions of Satanism.

[prhill]

Well some Satanists are atheists like The Satanic Temple which the documentary HAIL SATAN is about are atheists.    They embrace things like science and skepticism and fight for the separation of Church and state and human rights and stuff.  Satan is just used as a symbol by them and not as an actual being.

The Satanic Temple and the Laveyan satanists/Church of Satan are two very different things

Yeah, I get that but one doesn't always follow the other, as you said there are different versions of Satanism.

yep exactly

[Amarok]

A little off topic, but...

I was listening to a true crime show last night and the law enforcement officer who was describing the suspect said that the suspect was an 'avowed atheist' and had several Satanic symbols tattooed on his body.  'Scuse me?  Was he an atheist or a Satanist?  It reminded me that some people don't get it. They believe that atheist=Satanist.

This is the same trick they use with stuff like communism or nihilism or some philosophy that may have members who are atheists all of a sudden that becomes atheism .

---

Actually Satan isn't the Hebrew devil and they view Satan as more of an idealist symbol  then a actual being .

Right. I'm aware that Satan has various meanings, in the history of Judaism and Christianity. That's why I said he's a "character" from that tradition. 

What do you mean by "idealist symbol"? Does this give modern Satanists some reason to use him as a rallying point?

---

Belaqua's argument seems to contrast some older European Satanists with American Satanists, and according to him, the former is more substantive.

Yeah, that's a fair statement.

I'm still looking to figure out why modern American Satanists are interested in Satan, as opposed to some other literary symbol of rebellion. Prometheus or Lord Byron or somebody from Game of Thrones or Star Wars. 

Either Satan as they use him is tied to history, in which case he's a religious figure, or he isn't. And if he isn't, then he isn't what he used to be. He's something new.

From what I get he's a representation of certain values or concepts given a character form

[Athene]

Virtually every self-proclaimed Satanist atheist I've come across has honestly struck me as more of a misotheist once the surface was scratched. It does seem apparent believe in God and just hate him, as they're always happy to yammer on incessantly about how He failed and offended them on a personal level. They certainly talk about that MF as if he's quite real.

And then there's the whole being keen on utilizing spellwork to attain some sort of vague and elusive power.
They love to claim it's solely for meditative/focusing purposes though. 

Sure. Okay. 

Seems that calling oneself a Satanist, joining a Satanic church, regularly attending Satanic services, and routinely engaging in "symbolic" spells and rituals is an extraordinarily counterproductive and odd way to make it clear that one simply doesn't believe in God and takes issue with organized religion.

[prhill]

Virtually every self-proclaimed Satanist atheist I've come across has honestly struck me as more of a misotheist once the surface was scratched. It does seem apparent believe in God and just hate him, as they're always happy to yammer on incessantly about how He failed and offended them on a personal level. They certainly talk about that MF as if he's quite real.

And then there's the whole being keen on utilizing spellwork to attain some sort of vague and elusive power.
They love to claim it's solely for meditative/focusing purposes though. 

Sure. Okay. 

Seems that calling oneself a Satanist, joining a Satanic church, regularly attending Satanic services, and routinely engaging in "symbolic" spells and rituals is an extraordinarily counterproductive and odd way to make it clear that one simply doesn't believe in God and takes issue with organized religion.

Again it depends on what Satanists you are talking about? LaVeyans do spells and stuff yes.  But The Satanic Temple which is a different group if you look into it are atheists and skeptics and embrace science which is why they are embraced at atheistic and skeptical  gatherings and rally's and are on atheistic podcasts.

[Belacqua]

an extraordinarily counterproductive and odd way to make it clear that one simply doesn't believe in God and takes issue with organized religion.

It's what Umberto Eco and Baudrillard said about American culture: it's Hyperreal. The parody or fake is taken as more real than the real.

So for EgoDeath and others, real Satanism has no real Satan, and people who believe in real Satan are fake Satanists.