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"Hail Satan?" (2019)
#21
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 8:18 am)EgoDeath Wrote: What is your obsession with Satanism being some rejection of mainstream culture?

Once again, a clear indication that you have no clue what you're talking about.
Thank you, this answers my question. For you, Satanism is not a rejection of mainstream culture. 

So, as I said earlier, the Satanists in the movie ad are for the most part no different from mainstream culture. We agree on that, then. 

I don't see the point of being a Satanist if your life and goals are the same as a Methodist.

----

From your recommendation, I looked up LaVey's book just now. It's very new; I had only known about more traditional Satanism before. From the influences listed, and the goals, it does look like a very American sort of "philosophy." Self-interest and Ayn Rand. 

So it is a variation on mainstream US culture.
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#22
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 11:28 am)Belaqua Wrote: Thank you, this answers my question. For you, Satanism is not a rejection of mainstream culture. 

So, as I said earlier, the Satanists in the movie ad are for the most part no different from mainstream culture. We agree on that, then. 

I don't see the point of being a Satanist if your life and goals are the same as a Methodist.

With every post you make you are show how little you know about this subject. Yet you INSIST on speaking on it. You're so ignorant that you don't even know what you don't know.

Rejection of the mainstream may very well be a part of the Satanist's life. Or it may not be. That's beside the point completely.

I do not agree with your statement, don't suggest that I do.

Satanists very likely do not have the same goals or lifestyle as Methodists.

Just wow.

(March 7, 2019 at 11:28 am)Belaqua Wrote: From your recommendation, I looked up LaVey's book just now. It's very new; I had only known about more traditional Satanism before.


There was no group known as "Satanists" before LaVey's Church of Satan. "Satanist" and "satanism," in olden times, were mainly used as derogatory terms to disparage different pagan/witchcraft groups and the like. The was no "Satanic church" before 1966. There was no codified philosophy of Satanism before LaVey. So whatever this is that you supposedly knew of before was not Satanism. So, apparently, you're ignorant as to what Satanism is and what is isn't How surprising.

(March 7, 2019 at 11:28 am)Belaqua Wrote: From the influences listed, and the goals, it does look like a very American sort of "philosophy." Self-interest and Ayn Rand. 

So it is a variation on mainstream US culture.

Wrong wrong wrong. Holy shit you're dumb.

I'm not replying to you anymore, as you've demonstrated multiple times now that you are completely ignorant on this subject and you have no interest in learning about it. So there's no discussion to be had here. Then, after a ten minute google search you think you have it figured out. Jesus. Just stop. Or don't. Get in whatever last words you'd like. You're wrong time and time again and I'm not going to keep trying to explain this to you.

You've never once taken the time to ASK me, or anyone else, any direct questions about what the Satanic philosophy is. Your entire attitude in this thread has been dismissive and arrogant. Which is why you were met with dismissive arrogance in my posts. You know NOTHING about this but continue to babble on and on. How embarrassing.

I'm done. Not replying anymore.

The funny part is you'll still walk away from this encounter thinking you have this subject figured out. Honestly funny.

edit: If you want to know what Satanism is then you should study it. Read the literature.

Beyond that, I cannot help you as you have no interest in learning from me. I've told you multiple times that I'm familiar with Satanism and its teachings and while you could've expressed curiosity in the subject and asked me questions, you chose not to. You only want to spout off about what you supposedly know about a subject you're clearly completely uneducated on. Have fun arguing with yourself.
"The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live -- moreover, the only one." - E.M. Cloran
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#23
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 11:28 am)Belaqua Wrote:
(March 7, 2019 at 8:18 am)EgoDeath Wrote: What is your obsession with Satanism being some rejection of mainstream culture?

Once again, a clear indication that you have no clue what you're talking about.
Thank you, this answers my question. For you, Satanism is not a rejection of mainstream culture. 

So, as I said earlier, the Satanists in the movie ad are for the most part no different from mainstream culture. We agree on that, then. 

I don't see the point of being a Satanist if your life and goals are the same as a Methodist.

----

From your recommendation, I looked up LaVey's book just now. It's very new; I had only known about more traditional Satanism before. From the influences listed, and the goals, it does look like a very American sort of "philosophy." Self-interest and Ayn Rand. 

So it is a variation on mainstream US culture.

I read Lavey's book in the late 70s. I knew several people who were reading it. We were all reading it for its shock value. Our primary use for it was to leave it laying out in some prominent location so that people could see how radical we were. I have never seen anyone use it for anything but that.

I remember a beach that I used to hang out at on the Big Island of Hawaii. It was extremely popular with the local hippy crowd, and not with the tourists. There was a group of old guys there who were refugees from the 60s. They all imagined themselves to be gurus. They were big fans of Aleister Crowley, among others. They all imagined themselves to be deeply knowledgeable about esoteric things. They spent most of their day smoking pot and accusing each other of not understanding stuff the way that they themselves did. Their supposedly esoteric knowledge seemed to be of a pretty pedestrian nature, but they thought that it was deep. I was under the impression that they had not actually read very many books, but the few that they had read made them experts. They had little formal education, and had never spent any time studying with any masters. I doubt that they could have studied with any masters, because that would have required them to actually humble themselves and drop their pretense of knowing things. These guys were old men who never grew up.
We do not inherit the world from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
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#24
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 11:53 am)EgoDeath Wrote: I cannot help you as you have no interest in learning from me.

You haven't tried to teach me anything. You just say I'm wrong over and over. It's true that I don't know about LaVey; I have only read about pre-1960s Satanism. 

One of the things that makes me see post-1960s Satanism as very American in style is its very newness and disconnection from the older types. American "tradition" tends to be fairly new enactments of things that seem old. A new Satanism based on Ayn Rand and the usual misreadings of Nietzsche are right at home. 

You remember what Baudrillard was writing, probably. He said that America was the land of fake news, fake democracy, fake religion, fake wars, etc. etc. He said that America needs Disneyland to be extra fake so that the rest of America seems real in contrast. 

I still think that a Satanism which buys a statue to put on the courthouse lawn is a deracinated, self-help, feel-good movement. 

If you eventually want to explain why that's not so, I am reading your posts.

(March 7, 2019 at 12:02 pm)Yonadav Wrote: I remember a beach that I used to hang out at on the Big Island of Hawaii. It was extremely popular with the local hippy crowd, and not with the tourists. There was a group of old guys there who were refugees from the 60s.  They all imagined themselves to be gurus. They were big fans of Aleister Crowley, among others. They all imagined themselves to be deeply knowledgeable about esoteric things. They spent most of their day smoking pot and accusing each other of not understanding stuff the way that they themselves did. Their supposedly esoteric knowledge seemed to be of a pretty pedestrian nature, but they thought that it was deep. I was under the impression that they had not actually read very many books, but the few that they had read made them experts. They had little formal education, and had never spent any time studying with any masters. I doubt that they could have studied with any masters, because that would have required them to actually humble themselves and drop their pretense of knowing things. These guys were old men who never grew up.

Sad to say, this is very much my impression of the great majority of self-described esoteric types. Read a paperback from the '60s and become a guru. 

The history of Satanism and all the alternative, inverted religions is really interesting. Tobias Churton, among others, has written interesting history on how these movements had a surprisingly large influence on modern arts, including Verlaine and those guys. 

I still think the most fascinating account is in the novels of Huysmans. He begins with the black masses in Paris, and as he develops, largely through close readings of the symbolism in Chartres Cathedral, eventually joins the Catholic Church. 

That Satanism had deep roots, knowledge of the dangers and social consequences, and commitment to what was, in those days, risky. They had all read Goethe's Faust and knew what the master had worked out about bargains with the devil. 

It's great stuff. Still relevant and inspiring.
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#25
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 6:48 pm)Belaqua Wrote:
(March 7, 2019 at 11:53 am)EgoDeath Wrote: I cannot help you as you have no interest in learning from me.

You haven't tried to teach me anything. You just say I'm wrong over and over. It's true that I don't know about LaVey; I have only read about pre-1960s Satanism. 

One of the things that makes me see post-1960s Satanism as very American in style is its very newness and disconnection from the older types. American "tradition" tends to be fairly new enactments of things that seem old. A new Satanism based on Ayn Rand and the usual misreadings of Nietzsche are right at home. 

You remember what Baudrillard was writing, probably. He said that America was the land of fake news, fake democracy, fake religion, fake wars, etc. etc. He said that America needs Disneyland to be extra fake so that the rest of America seems real in contrast. 

I still think that a Satanism which buys a statue to put on the courthouse lawn is a deracinated, self-help, feel-good movement. 

If you eventually want to explain why that's not so, I am reading your posts.

(March 7, 2019 at 12:02 pm)Yonadav Wrote: I remember a beach that I used to hang out at on the Big Island of Hawaii. It was extremely popular with the local hippy crowd, and not with the tourists. There was a group of old guys there who were refugees from the 60s.  They all imagined themselves to be gurus. They were big fans of Aleister Crowley, among others. They all imagined themselves to be deeply knowledgeable about esoteric things. They spent most of their day smoking pot and accusing each other of not understanding stuff the way that they themselves did. Their supposedly esoteric knowledge seemed to be of a pretty pedestrian nature, but they thought that it was deep. I was under the impression that they had not actually read very many books, but the few that they had read made them experts. They had little formal education, and had never spent any time studying with any masters. I doubt that they could have studied with any masters, because that would have required them to actually humble themselves and drop their pretense of knowing things. These guys were old men who never grew up.

Sad to say, this is very much my impression of the great majority of self-described esoteric types. Read a paperback from the '60s and become a guru. 

The history of Satanism and all the alternative, inverted religions is really interesting. Tobias Churton, among others, has written interesting history on how these movements had a surprisingly large influence on modern arts, including Verlaine and those guys. 

I still think the most fascinating account is in the novels of Huysmans. He begins with the black masses in Paris, and as he develops, largely through close readings of the symbolism in Chartres Cathedral, eventually joins the Catholic Church. 

That Satanism had deep roots, knowledge of the dangers and social consequences, and commitment to what was, in those days, risky. They had all read Goethe's Faust and knew what the master had worked out about bargains with the devil. 

It's great stuff. Still relevant and inspiring.

You are far better read than I am about these things, my friend. I was getting a bit irritated watching you be insulted about your knowledge by someone whose knowledge comes from reading a couple of books about re-invented American consumer satanism.
We do not inherit the world from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
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#26
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
You poor fuckers implicate each other.... and then, privately wonder how you were found out.  It's absurd.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#27
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 7:09 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: You poor fuckers implicate each other.... and then, privately wonder how you were found out.  It's absurd.

You're a lot more familiar with American styles of crime, drugs, and violence than I am.

Do you think that LaVey-style Satanism does anything to address these issues? Or is it more like a granfalloon for self-identity purposes?
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#28
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 7:41 pm)Belaqua Wrote:
(March 7, 2019 at 7:09 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: You poor fuckers implicate each other.... and then, privately wonder how you were found out.  It's absurd.

You're a lot more familiar with American styles of crime, drugs, and violence than I am.
Probably, what with how I used to be engaged in it for living, lol. Wink

Quote:Do you think that LaVey-style Satanism does anything to address these issues? Or is it more like a granfalloon for self-identity purposes?

Why do you think that would matter?   If I asked you how, exactly, american chirsterism did anything to address these issues the fact that it doesn't wouldn't mean shit.  It doesn't mean shit when anyone else fails to directly address them, either, if they do fail to address them.  Laveyin satanism posits that we are all individually responsible for our actions, not because we're "fallen" as some comment on the entirety of the human species...but squarely laying the blame or praise for any given humans actions on that human.  Why did Sally do the bad thing?  Because Sally wanted to do that, not because we're all cursed and bad by nature.  Which of the two responses to what Sally did requires less fantasy?
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#29
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 7:46 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Laveyin satanism posits that we are all individually responsible for our actions, not because we're "fallen" as some comment on the entirety of the human species...but squarely laying the blame or praise for any given humans actions on that human.  Why did Sally do the bad thing?  Because Sally wanted to do that...

Thank you, this is the first thing anyone here has told me about LaVey's teaching. 

American self-responsibility, pioneer spirit, etc. It's how we get away with cutting welfare and all that. 

Basically Protestantism.
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#30
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
Yeah, sure, satanism is basically protestantism..instead of it's rejection.  Brilliant thesis.

........WTF?..................
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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