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"Hail Satan?" (2019)
#61
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 14, 2019 at 10:21 pm)Amarok Wrote: Actually Satan isn't the Hebrew devil and they view Satan as more of an idealist symbol  then a actual being .

My guess is that Belaqua already knows this. But I suppose it's fathomable that he doesn't (just unlikely).

Belaqua's argument seems to contrast some older European Satanists with American Satanists, and according to him, the former is more substantive.
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#62
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 14, 2019 at 10:21 pm)prhill Wrote: Page 222 of the book if I recall right he talks about Sheldrake again just as he does in interviews. And Sheldrake is into pseudoscience so that proves my point. I think he even became a born again christian. As far as the Laveyans bragging about ritual magic results from the 2006 event it was in Not Like  Most magazine the issue that focused on that event. And even in more recent years the podcast 9sense did a yearly episode on Laveyan ritual magic including a two hour episode where Laveyans wrote in or called in about results they got from lust rituals curses and compassion rituals.

Want me to give you the sources for Laveyans who believe in spirits and demons and reincarnation and ghosts too because I will dig it all out if I have too?

And on that same page it mentions him ONE time and it says that ritual is simply a tool for therapeutic expression... It also says that ritual is not a fundamental part of being a Satanist. Once again, that some Satanists choose to believe in silly new-age woo means nothing about the organization as a whole. There are biologists that believe in god, that doesn't make biology a Christian field of study. It's also been stated that Lust rituals may simply give an individual enough confidence to approach the woman/man they were lusting after, not that it magically put the other person under a sex-crazed spell.

And if people believe in supernatural beings, they are not Satanists. It states clearly on the CoS website that it is an atheistic philosophy. So, yes. Please "dig up" these specific sources. Also, there is no CoS forum. At least not in 2019.

edit: I think you seem to be missing the "nudge nudge, wink wink" brand of sarcasm often employed in Satanic literature. There are no devils in Satanism, no ghosts, no magic. If someone calls themselves a Satanist and then says they believe in the devil, they are not a Satanist.

(May 14, 2019 at 10:32 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(May 14, 2019 at 10:21 pm)Amarok Wrote: Actually Satan isn't the Hebrew devil and they view Satan as more of an idealist symbol  then a actual being .

My guess is that Belaqua already knows this. But I suppose it's fathomable that he doesn't (just unlikely).

Belaqua's argument seems to contrast some older European Satanists with American Satanists, and according to him, the former is more substantive.

Anton LaVey was the first person to codify a philosophy known as "Satanism." there was no such thing as "Satanism" as a codified philosophy before LaVey.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#63
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 14, 2019 at 10:32 pm)EgoDeath Wrote:
(May 14, 2019 at 10:21 pm)prhill Wrote: Page 222 of the book if I recall right he talks about Sheldrake again just as he does in interviews. And Sheldrake is into pseudoscience so that proves my point. I think he even became a born again christian. As far as the Laveyans bragging about ritual magic results from the 2006 event it was in Not Like  Most magazine the issue that focused on that event. And even in more recent years the podcast 9sense did a yearly episode on Laveyan ritual magic including a two hour episode where Laveyans wrote in or called in about results they got from lust rituals curses and compassion rituals.

Want me to give you the sources for Laveyans who believe in spirits and demons and reincarnation and ghosts too because I will dig it all out if I have too?

And on that same page it mentions him ONE time and it says that ritual is simply a tool for therapeutic expression... It also says that ritual is not a fundamental part of being a Satanist. Once again, that some Satanists choose to believe in silly new-age woo means nothing about the organization as a whole. There are biologists that believe in god, that doesn't make biology a Christian field of study. It's also been stated that Lust rituals may simply give an individual enough confidence to approach the woman/man they were lusting after, not that it magically put the other person under a sex-crazed spell.

And if people believe in supernatural beings, they are not Satanists. It states clearly on the CoS website that it is an atheistic philosophy. So, yes. Please "dig up" these specific sources. Also, there is no CoS forum. At least not in 2019.

(May 14, 2019 at 10:32 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: My guess is that Belaqua already knows this. But I suppose it's fathomable that he doesn't (just unlikely).

Belaqua's argument seems to contrast some older European Satanists with American Satanists, and according to him, the former is more substantive.

Anton LaVey was the first person to codify a philosophy known as "Satanism." there was no such thing as "Satanism" as a codified philosophy before LaVey.

Yes they keep mentioning Sheldrake because they believe you can send thoughts to other minds. That is even mentioned in the Satanic Bible by Lavey and that is pseudoscience.  There is no proof at all by real science that you can inject thoughts into the brain of someone to make them do what you want.  

Did you check out the sources I gave you for all the endless bragging about ritual results???  The magazine and the podcasts?

 As far as them believing in ghosts and a spirit world and reincarnation  wow where to begin. King Diamond by far the most famous COS member and the member most respected  by Lavey has talked since the early 80s about being haunted by spirits and demons and even claimed to summon one once. he believes this is due to powers we all have that lives many lives.  You can look up the hundreds of interviews he has done talking about this or if you like I can send them there are many.  Blanche Barton who gave birth to LaVeys last child and is a  very high ranking member in recent years much like King Diamond has seen the spirits levitate objects and heard their voices and believes like King in reincarnation.  She has mentioned this in recent interviews you should be able to find on youtube one with Art bell and the other two I forget the names but can find for you if you wish.   COS Rev Thomas Thorn who is also mentioned in Satanic Scriptures talks openly not only about spirit guides but also about how demons are very real and he summons them and communicates with them!  he mentioned this in a few places including the COS magazine the Black Flame.  Those are just some examples

And what about the Lavey Satanic rules of the earth acknowledge the power of magic or lose what you gained through it! if that is not occult and supernatural then what is?
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#64
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 14, 2019 at 10:21 pm)Amarok Wrote: Actually Satan isn't the Hebrew devil and they view Satan as more of an idealist symbol  then a actual being .

Right. I'm aware that Satan has various meanings, in the history of Judaism and Christianity. That's why I said he's a "character" from that tradition. 

What do you mean by "idealist symbol"? Does this give modern Satanists some reason to use him as a rallying point?

(May 14, 2019 at 10:32 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Belaqua's argument seems to contrast some older European Satanists with American Satanists, and according to him, the former is more substantive.

Yeah, that's a fair statement.

I'm still looking to figure out why modern American Satanists are interested in Satan, as opposed to some other literary symbol of rebellion. Prometheus or Lord Byron or somebody from Game of Thrones or Star Wars. 

Either Satan as they use him is tied to history, in which case he's a religious figure, or he isn't. And if he isn't, then he isn't what he used to be. He's something new.
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#65
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 15, 2019 at 12:32 am)Belaqua Wrote: I'm still looking to figure out why modern American Satanists are interested in Satan, as opposed to some other literary symbol of rebellion.

Maybe for the same reason one of my friends named his dog "Loki." Not because my friend was interested in Norse mythology did he sympathize with/idolize Loki, but because he was something of a nefarious shit. Sometimes it's as simple as that.
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#66
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 14, 2019 at 10:32 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: Anton LaVey was the first person to codify a philosophy known as "Satanism." there was no such thing as "Satanism" as a codified philosophy before LaVey.

Well, that may be, depending on how we define "codify a philosophy." I mean, French Satanists had a pretty thoroughly thought-out philosophy, with (arguably) far better informed roots than your average American. And most of them agreed on the essentials. 

Whether that qualifies as "codified" or not I can't say. 

Then there's the question of whether it is compatible with the Lord of Chaos and the Left-Hand Path to codify anything. If it's a matter of competing codes, then we need to specify why one code is superior to the other. But if Satanism is truly a philosophy of freedom and opposition to the codification of modern society, why would a Satanist exchange one codification for another? Does freedom want codification? 

I want to be sure that modern American Satanists aren't exchanging one codification for another. And if they are accepting a codified view which is in fact modern and liberal, in favor of equal rights and all those good things, then how does a modern American Satanist differ from a modern American NPR listener? 

Are they truly rebels, or are they only rebels against a certain kind of Christian backwardness, who would be perfectly at home in an American college town like Lawrence, Kansas or Madison, Wisconsin?

(May 15, 2019 at 12:44 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(May 15, 2019 at 12:32 am)Belaqua Wrote: I'm still looking to figure out why modern American Satanists are interested in Satan, as opposed to some other literary symbol of rebellion.

Maybe for the same reason one of my friends named his dog "Loki." Not because my friend was interested in Norse mythology did he sympathize with/idolize Loki, but because he was something of a nefarious shit. Sometimes it's as simple as that.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. 

All on the surface. A rebellion against society consisting of naming your dog something different than your local Baptist minister names his dog. 

Naming your dog after a character in one of capitalist Hollywood's most profitable movie franchises. 

That's the opposite of rebellion.
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#67
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 15, 2019 at 12:45 am)Belaqua Wrote: Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. 

All on the surface. A rebellion against society consisting of naming your dog something different than your local Baptist minister names his dog. 

Naming your dog after a character in one of capitalist Hollywood's most profitable movie franchises. 

That's the opposite of rebellion.

This was before the first Thor movie, if it means anything. But that wasn't part of my original point anyway.

The American Satanists are a bunch of nefarious shits. That was my point. It is my opinion that, under certain circumstances, a nefarious shit is in a position to do more good than a developed intellectual (like you or I, if you or I should meet that mark).

I don't think these guys have any kind of superior philosophy. As I indicated before, it's somewhat bastardized and mediocre. But they are rowdy and belligerent. If you look at what the left hand path aims to achieve, it isn't far from their aspirations.

They aren't trying to be the best at solving society's ills. They are merely aiming their dick at hypocrites and letting a steady yellow stream flow in their direction. They aren't really trying to be more than that.

If the Evangelical Christian culture in America were anything more than a bunch of oppressive bullies who melt under the slightest criticism or mockery, then American Satanism would be worthless.

But as it turns out, American Satanists are quite useful. Smile Smile Smile
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#68
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 14, 2019 at 10:21 pm)Amarok Wrote:
(May 14, 2019 at 10:05 pm)CDF47 Wrote: Does anyone not see the problem here?  There is a God and there is a Satan.  It is on us to choose a side.
Nope because these aren't theological Satanists and the actual ones think your bible is a lie . Thus you are wrong .

(May 14, 2019 at 9:08 pm)Belaqua Wrote: This is something new, I think.

Satan is a Jewish and a Christian character. In your view, why and how do atheists identify with a character from religion? What is the benefit of calling themselves Satanists over, for example, members of the Mickey Mouse Club, or Bronies?
Actually Satan isn't the Hebrew devil and they view Satan as more of an idealist symbol  then a actual being .

Some satanists do believe he is real.
The LORD Exists: http://www.godandscience.org/
Intelligent Design (Short Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU
Intelligent Design (Longer Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzj8iXiVDT8
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#69
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 15, 2019 at 1:05 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: ... nefarious shits... 

...I don't think these guys have any kind of superior philosophy. As I indicated before, it's somewhat bastardized and mediocre. But they are rowdy and belligerent...

...aiming their dick at hypocrites and letting a steady yellow stream flow in their direction. They aren't really trying to be more than that...

If the Evangelical Christian culture in America were anything more than a bunch of oppressive bullies who melt under the slightest criticism or mockery, then American Satanism would be worthless.

Right, well, I think shits are shits. If they lack philosophy then they are just directionless shits. If they are rowdy and belligerent directionless shits then they are contemptible. 

If they are just pissing at whatever they dislike, then their goals may be fractionally better (if they listen to NPR rather than Fox, for example) but in their actions and in their selves they are no better than your average Trump voter. 

Deracinated shits who are 99.999% the same as the rest of American philosophy-less rowdy shits. The urge to épater les bourgeois has never fallen so low. 

I genuinely hope that at least a few of them are better than this. 

And for those few who can read, let them ditch the cos-play for a genuinely challenging rebel like Simone Weil, a Christian.
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#70
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(May 15, 2019 at 1:30 am)Belaqua Wrote: Right, well, I think shits are shits. If they lack philosophy then they are just directionless shits. If they are rowdy and belligerent directionless shits then they are contemptible. 

If they are just pissing at whatever they dislike, then their goals may be fractionally better (if they listen to NPR rather than Fox, for example) but in their actions and in their selves they are no better than your average Trump voter. 

Deracinated shits who are 99.999% the same as the rest of American philosophy-less rowdy shits. The urge to épater les bourgeois has never fallen so low. 

I genuinely hope that at least a few of them are better than this. 

And for those few who can read, let them ditch the cos-play for a genuinely challenging rebel like Simone Weil, a Christian.

I'd laugh, but I fear that 99.9x% of Americans really ARE "rowdy and belligerent directionless shits."

I've learned to love a great many of them though. You gotta look past the surface sometimes. Then you'll find something worth loving.

That goes for political movements as well as individuals.

The Lebanese poet, Gibran, wrote a poem about looking past the surface. It's one of my favorites. Maybe you'll like it too.



"Faces"

I have seen a face with a thousand countenances, and a face that was but a single countenance as if held in a mould.

I have seen a face whose sheen I could look through to the ugliness beneath, and a face whose sheen I had to lift to see how beautiful it was.

I have seen an old face much lined with nothing, and a smooth face in which all things were graven.

I know faces, because I look through the fabric my own eye weaves, and behold the reality beneath.
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