Who Would You Vote for, Trump or Saunders?

[Rev. Rye]

I'll take the one who doesn't eat, sleep, and breathe the Dark Triad and isn't an existential threat to literally everything good about America and Western Civilization.

[Tiberius]

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but isn't the US already well on the way to being a socialist society?  As I understand it, you use tax revenues to:

-Educate children

-Provide medical care and housing for the indigent, the poor, and the elderly

-Guaranteed at least some income to the elderly

-Provide food for the poor

-Provide unemployment benefits

-Undertake infrastructure projects

-Subsidize farming, banking and other industries

-Regulate industries

-Maintain national parks and landmarks

ALL of these are the hallmarks of a socialist society.  I think a large part of the gut-wrench that a lot of Americans have when they hear the word 'socialism' is due to not really understanding what socialism is.

Boru

Not really though. Socialism is chiefly an economic system where workers own the means of production rather than individuals. Not even the supposed socialist European countries do that.

There’s a bunch of confusion over socialism in general, to be honest. Welfare programs aren’t necessarily socialist, nor are they necessarily anti-capitalist. Social programs (like the ones you mentioned) are named such not because they are socialist, but because they have to do with society. Many capitalist nations use taxes to fund social programs.

[Cecelia]

Not really though. Socialism is chiefly an economic system where workers own the means of production rather than individuals. Not even the supposed socialist European countries do that.

There’s a bunch of confusion over socialism in general, to be honest. Welfare programs aren’t necessarily socialist, nor are they necessarily anti-capitalist. Social programs (like the ones you mentioned) are named such not because they are socialist, but because they have to do with society. Many capitalist nations use taxes to fund social programs.

[squidfetish]

Who wouldn't want the country to become a little more egalitarian? When someone says the word 'socialism', many hear the word 'communism'. A little more egalitarian doesn't mean queuing 3 days for cabbage. An enormous amount of wealth is hoarded by a miniscule number of people. Shouldn't this miniscule number at least pay a reasonable amount of tax back into the country that enabled them to become immensely rich? Also, can it be right that a family where both adults work still struggle to put food on the table and pay the rent?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but isn't the US already well on the way to being a socialist society?  As I understand it, you use tax revenues to:

-Educate children

-Provide medical care and housing for the indigent, the poor, and the elderly

-Guaranteed at least some income to the elderly

-Provide food for the poor

-Provide unemployment benefits

-Undertake infrastructure projects

-Subsidize farming, banking and other industries

-Regulate industries

-Maintain national parks and landmarks

ALL of these are the hallmarks of a socialist society.  I think a large part of the gut-wrench that a lot of Americans have when they hear the word 'socialism' is due to not really understanding what socialism is.

Boru

Not really though. Socialism is chiefly an economic system where workers own the means of production rather than individuals. Not even the supposed socialist European countries do that.

There’s a bunch of confusion over socialism in general, to be honest. Welfare programs aren’t necessarily socialist, nor are they necessarily anti-capitalist. Social programs (like the ones you mentioned) are named such not because they are socialist, but because they have to do with society. Many capitalist nations use taxes to fund social programs.

Which is more or less my point.  People cry havoc about 'socialist' Norway, 'socialist' Denmark, etc, but they really don't know what socialism is.  When I said the US is on the way to becoming socialist, I was referring to the models that many other countries use that Americans seem to be so terrified of (poor choice of words on my part.  Mea culpa).

I maintain that there isn't a purely socialist or capitalist society on the planet, never has been.

Boru

[Fake Messiah]

3. Welfare is a good mini example of what American socialism will look like. To each according to his need. From each according to his ability. Honestly folks, do you want the government to decide what you do and don’t need. Do you want to hide your television in the closet because the social worker doesn’t one to make sure you have everything you need but to make sure you don’t have anything they think you don’t need? Do you want the Needs and Abilities Coordination Bureau deciding what you do with your abilities?

Wow, that's some serious shit communism. Bernie Sanders's socialism is more in a direction to give people Medicare, ban private prisons, make public schools better, protect national parks and not give them to oil companies to drill on them, invest in public roads and that sorts of things.

I mean if you're afraid of taking wealth from those that work and giving them to those that don't, then this is happening right now under capitalism where you have these rich people that get subsidies from government (because they're "too big to fail"), as well as tax exemptions, like Jeff Bezos will pay $0 on $11,200,000,000 in profit for 2018.

[AFTT47]

There are some subjects where I will speak with a loud voice because I am very confident that I am right but this is not one of them. I can see the merits and pitfalls on both sides in this argument but I am not swayed strongly by either.

My gut feeling is that I really hope neither Sanders nor Warren win the the democratic nomination. I would really have to hold my nose to pull the lever for either of them but pull it, I would.

Lets get real here. Trump is actually actively opposed to measures to tackle climate change, is opposed to our move toward renewable energy, is opposed to science, is a white supremacist, a misogynist, a habitual liar, completely amoral, utterly petty and shallow...

Rhonda, WTF are you thinking??? I have a lot of respect for you but I wonder if you are paying attention here. Trump is a fucking nightmare!

I agree that capitalism is what launched this country to the pinnacle of the world. We've faltered of late but now we have revolutionary companies like Tesla and SpaceX that are leading the world into the 21st century - American companies. And idiot Trump is opposing them! The supreme jackass is promoting coal power plants and gasoline cars. The Department of Energy has been directed to refer to natural gas as "Freedom Gas."

Do you really think Sander's ideas (which would be subject to the checks and balances of congress) are more dangerous than Trump's?

Think again.

[Athene]

I can think of compelling arguments both for and against American socialism. CTTOI, I can think of compelling arguments for and against Trump when the alternative is socialism.

Here are the reasons why I would seriously consider voting for Trump if the dems choose Saunders as their candidate.
1. The US is a capitalist republic, just as the USSR was a socialist republic. If we become a socialist republic with our national debt where it is, we will be in the same position Russia was when it fell.
2. Socialism will mean a significant drop in American consumerism. This is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, we won’t be using so much of the earth’s resources and will contribute less to global warming. OTOH. China’s economy if dependent on us buying goods made in china. If we stop, china will have no recourse but to demand that we repay the money we owe them. ATVL. China will stop giving us money and we will go belly up.
3. Welfare is a good mini example of what American socialism will look like. To each according to his need. From each according to his ability. Honestly folks, do you want the government to decide what you do and don’t need. Do you want to hide your television in the closet because the social worker doesn’t one to make sure you have everything you need but to make sure you don’t have anything they think you don’t need? Do you  want the Needs and Abilities Coordination Bureau deciding what you do with your abilities?

Come on now, Rhonda. Sanders and the DSA aren't proposing a Needs and Abilities Coordination Bureau.
Not yet, anyhow.

That being said...whether Sanders is actually a low-key closeted commie or not, his on record ideals and proposals are still too far left for me to rationalize supporting him. 
If he wins the Democratic nomination, it'll likely be a third party or protest vote from me in 2020.


So I chose 'Neither', obviously.

[Fake Messiah]

Then you really should watch an interview with Bernie Sanders by Killer Mike who believes Bernie talks like MLK and is in many ways like him.
They explain how Bernie's ideas are not so radical, but that he just wants to put measures that are already in place in countries like Canada, Germany and UK.

[Divinity]

I don't get why people are so damn scared of "Socialism". Oh no! Everyone might get healthcare and might not go into crazy debt by going to college! Oohhh! Scary! Much scarier than actual concentration camps, a looming war with Iran, and LGBT and Women's rights being entirely eroded.