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Eternity
#21
RE: Eternity
(September 16, 2019 at 8:41 pm)mordant Wrote: And you're right, there are different version of heaven, too

Thank you! I don't think anyone on this forum has ever acknowledge it when I was right before. Even when I was.

Quote:My point however was that regardless of the details, heaven involves eternity, which is never-ending, and we are story-telling creatures of time who really, though we hate to admit it, need stories with beginnings, middles, and yes, ends. Whether heaven is like the life we know or not, it is ENDLESS. This is the fundamental problem. Either we'd lose our marbles eventually or we would have to be remade into something we wouldn't recognize.

Usually in theology, "eternity" doesn't mean endless. It is an unchanging state outside of time. The notion of getting bored in heaven is incoherent to the versions of heaven described by Aquinas, Dante, etc.
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#22
RE: Eternity
(September 16, 2019 at 8:47 pm)Belaqua Wrote: Usually in theology, "eternity" doesn't mean endless. It is an unchanging state outside of time. The notion of getting bored in heaven is incoherent to the versions of heaven described by Aquinas, Dante, etc.

I submit that most people want eternity to be "time without end". "Timelessness" is a way to evade the problems I describe but it is not something that most folks can actually relate to (and, therefore, want). Besides, a non-dual state of no-past and no-future sounds even more claustrophobic than an open-ended timeline. To me, anyway. People pushing timelessness are basically just saying, "trust me, you'll like it, even if you can't conceptualize it at present". That's not very compelling.

I grew up with more of the idealized heaven, I admit. A Sunday School teacher once told me a story. A young Southern boy could not imagine that you could have heaven without fried chicken. He was assured that you could have all the fried chicken you could want. That seemed to me a rather transparent fabrication. Just decide what you wish you had, and you'll have it. Streets paved with gold is the metaphor actually in the NT and I think that was meant to convey this sort of "sky's the limit" notion.

My favorite joke is this guy and his wife die in a car accident and go to heaven. St Peter shows them their mansion. Inside is a table just full of delicious food. The guy says, no, I can't eat that stuff, it's bad for me. St Peter says, look, you don't get it -- this is heaven. You can eat anything you want, and it won't cause you heart problems or indigestion or anything. You won't even gain weight.

At this, the guy throws a complete fit and starts throwing things and so on. His wife says, Abner, what the heck has gotten into you. "If it wasn't for your goddamned bran muffins,", he replies, "I could have been here 15 years ago!"
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#23
RE: Eternity
(September 16, 2019 at 9:01 pm)mordant Wrote: I submit that most people want eternity to be "time without end". "Timelessness" is a way to evade the problems I describe but it is not something that most folks can actually relate to (and, therefore, want). Besides, a non-dual state of no-past and no-future sounds even more claustrophobic than an open-ended timeline. To me, anyway. People pushing timelessness are basically just saying, "trust me, you'll like it, even if you can't conceptualize it at present". That's not very compelling.

Here you seem to be assuming that people describe heaven in whatever way makes them happiest. That timelessness is invented purely as a way to avoid certain kinds of unhappy outcomes. No doubt this is true in some cases, but I don't think we can project that motivation onto Plato, Plotinus, and the others who worked out why, in their opinion, the timeless ideal world is more real than the contingent one, and why, later, heaven was associated with that ideal world. 

We can't always assume that theological and philosophical ideas were just invented to keep people happy. 

As you know, in the Old Testament salvation and the coming kingdom of God are only about a future safe and secure nation state of Israel. 

In the New Testament, the coming Kingdom of God is described very ambiguously. There are a lot of times when it sounds like an earthly utopia in which regular non-dead people live with perfect economic justice. Other times it sounds post-death. But it is very little described. 

The heaven of the theologians is far more rooted in Plato. As you know, he wrote that there is an ideal world, immaterial and unchanging. The idea of time passing there makes no sense. The easiest way to picture such a world is through numbers -- the number 2, for example, exists as an eternal idea, immaterial and unchanging. Plato's God is the same. 

The Neoplatonics like Plotinus developed these ideas further, and had a profound influence on Christian theology. For Plotinus, our true home and destination is the One -- an unchanging and undivided source of all things. There can be no time there, because there is no division, and time requires division -- before and after. Naturally there are differing ideas and variations as the Christians took the wisdom of the Greeks for their own. 

But it would be wrong to say that the idea of a timeless ideal world was invented purely to avoid worries about getting bored in the afterlife. The ideal world of Plato came long before the New Testament was written, and there is no reason at all to think that Plato was explaining things in this way just because it made him happy. In fact there would be far happier ideas of an afterlife we could dream up, if that was our only goal.
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#24
RE: Eternity
(September 15, 2019 at 5:48 pm)wyzas Wrote:
(September 15, 2019 at 5:22 pm)Belaqua Wrote: There is a wonderful book called The Great Chain of Being by Arthur Lovejoy which discusses, in part, different Christian views of heaven. Highly recommended. He summarizes two types: those that see heaven as an extension of this life, only better, and those which see heaven as radically different. 

Dante's Paradiso is a good example of the radically different type, and it's in keeping with the official theology of the Catholic church -- allowing for certain poetic differences. 

Dante's heaven is much in line with Neoplatonic thought. It is joining with the pure Good. But there is no time or space there, so the idea of how you spend your time is irrelevant.

I don't think he asked you to brag about knowing that one christian thinks this and one that. He asked what YOU would be doing.

Why the hell do you always feel the need to be pompous?

My favorite part is that I don't even think he realizes he's doing it. I think he really just believes that he's this educated, intellectually superior being and so he doesn't even think about how he comes off to people.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#25
RE: Eternity
(September 15, 2019 at 5:07 pm)Darwinian Wrote: If there is a heaven and you make it there, what might you expect to be doing in a billion years and what relevance would your 80ish years of life on Earth have?

I imagine it as eternal extinction, of a state being available in the here and now as well, similar to something like deep love.
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#26
RE: Eternity
(September 17, 2019 at 8:17 am)EgoDeath Wrote:
(September 15, 2019 at 5:48 pm)wyzas Wrote: I don't think he asked you to brag about knowing that one christian thinks this and one that. He asked what YOU would be doing.

Why the hell do you always feel the need to be pompous?

My favorite part is that I don't even think he realizes he's doing it. I think he really just believes that he's this educated, intellectually superior being and so he doesn't even think about how he comes off to people.

Shades of ASD?
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#27
RE: Eternity
(September 17, 2019 at 8:25 am)wyzas Wrote:
(September 17, 2019 at 8:17 am)EgoDeath Wrote: My favorite part is that I don't even think he realizes he's doing it. I think he really just believes that he's this educated, intellectually superior being and so he doesn't even think about how he comes off to people.

Shades of ASD?

Ah, you may be right. How ironic.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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#28
RE: Eternity
(September 16, 2019 at 1:09 pm)no one Wrote: Directing Calvin Klein commercials.
Or Duluth Trading Post?
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#29
RE: Eternity
I'd probably be doing exactly what I'm doing now, creature of habit..the only difference being that I would have gone completely insane ages ago.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#30
RE: Eternity
I went insane early, saved time.
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