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September 24, 2019 at 1:13 pm (This post was last modified: September 24, 2019 at 1:14 pm by EgoDeath.)
I had the recent experience of having a family member ask for some money. I won't go into details, as it's really not important, but I will add that since the gift was given, I am weary of continuing this trend. It wasn't a loan, it was a one-time gift, and I made that clear. However, I'm worried that this family member may begin to expect more money as time goes on. I have no problem helping someone in need, especially if it's someone I care about. But the concern about enabling someone you love is a very real one, and I don't want this family member to think I'm their ticket to a free ride.
Have any of you guys had experience with this? How do you avoid enabling someone when you want to support them? Surely, I'm not breaking the bank by doing what I did, but I don't want it to continue either, even if I can afford it. It's one thing to help someone out once in a while, it's another to enable them into thinking they don't have to work or can depend on you for money.
I suppose many parents deal with this type of dilemma with their children, but in this case the person is older than me. I just don't want this to turn into bad blood. Sometimes when you start to treat people a certain way, they expect that treatment forever, then treat you like the bad guy when that treatment stops. Even if you never owed it to them in the first place.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
If it's at all possible, rather than just hand over the cash, have them work for you. I've done this for friends several times, and it's always turned out okay.
If you give them the money, they may well come to expect it. If they work for it, you each get something from the exchange.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
(September 24, 2019 at 1:13 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: I had the recent experience of having a family member ask for some money. I won't go into details, as it's really not important, but I will add that since the gift was given, I am weary of continuing this trend. It wasn't a loan, it was a one-time gift, and I made that clear. However, I'm worried that this family member may begin to expect more money as time goes on. I have no problem helping someone in need, especially if it's someone I care about. But the concern about enabling someone you love is a very real one, and I don't want this family member to think I'm their ticket to a free ride.
Have any of you guys had experience with this? How do you avoid enabling someone when you want to support them? Surely, I'm not breaking the bank by doing what I did, but I don't want it to continue either, even if I can afford it. It's one thing to help someone out once in a while, it's another to enable them into thinking they don't have to work or can depend on you for money.
I suppose many parents deal with this type of dilemma with their children, but in this case the person is older than me. I just don't want this to turn into bad blood. Sometimes when you start to treat people a certain way, they expect that treatment forever, then treat you like the bad guy when that treatment stops. Even if you never owed it to them in the first place.
As someone who had depended on their late mother, me, financially my entire life, the problem isn't giving, the problem is can you afford it. It is certainly wrong if you can't and it becomes a financial burden on you, in that case you are right to cut them off. But if you can afford it and it isn't draining you, the only expectation you can have is that they don't suck you dry and understand a gift isn't an opportunity to suck you dry.
I had help financially my entire life. But I never would have, nor ever would have taken my mother's last dime. And my late mother was no fool, she never would have let me drain her, and she never did. Nor did I ever think my asking her for help was out of greed, because it was never that.
My mom always expected me to try, no matter what I did. And while she was the financial breadwinner, she always expected me to help her in kind, with whatever I could do, which I did. So as long as you are getting something back, even if not money, but moral or work around the house, then you are fine. It only becomes bad when you give and they are seeking to drain you.
Mutual help isn't always about gender roles or male or female or parent child. It is ok to help family out, as long as they are not draining you and the person asking for help knows you are not a doormat.
September 24, 2019 at 10:37 pm (This post was last modified: September 24, 2019 at 10:41 pm by mordant.)
I've experienced this issue from various angles:
1) My daughter has had a tendency to expect to be able to hit me up for financial help, beginning in college and continuing past her 1st and 2nd marriages and it continues occasionally to this day, when she is a grown-ass woman of 40 years, employed as a nurse who makes a decent salary. Most recently, her 14 year old son wanted to go to a summer arts camp (cost: $2500) and she set up a GoFundMe page for it and solicited donations from all her FB followers. Given the above facts, she only got around $500, and $0 of that came from me. Some who donated begged off until they got their tax refund or next paycheck, but she didn't take the hint; she took the money. From what I've seen, through stuff like this, she extorts $$ from in laws and ex in laws in exchange for continued access to her four children. To make it more vulgar than it already was, she mentioned that next year it's going to cost even more, so get ready for that too. "It takes a village" she says. My thought on this (and I hate to say it of my own daughter) is that it's narcissistic. There's a cartoon in circulation about a guy setting up a GoFundMe page because he wants a Ferrari. His friend say, um, aren't those for, like, raising money for a school bus for poor kids or something? And he says, i don't want a school bus, I want a Ferrari. Perhaps you'd like to kick it off with a generous donation? Although exaggerated, that's a decent characterization of my daughter's basic attitude. The irony here is that I always had set expectations with my kids of an "18 and out" philosophy. My attitude is that once you leave the nest, my work here is done. Besides, my son never pulled this shit. On the other hand ...
2. My stepson, who is a high functioning autistic, with comorbid social anxiety, moved in with us after a 7 year struggle resulting in him finally finishing his undergraduate degree (in part because of more than one long drive to university to scrape him off the floor and help him get squared away with the disability office and various accommodations, and pulling him out a couple of times to regroup and try again next semester). His biological father pays his health insurance and mostly paid for his college, and we're giving him free room and board now for over a year, and I've given him work subcontracting for me (he's terrific at it). Slowly he is figuring out the rest of his life, but my wife and I are unsure if he'll be gone in a year or two or if this is going to go on forever. He's weaned himself off a cocktail of medications, which was challenging, and currently working to get certain physical, psychological and neurological evaluations to figure out how best to proceed with therapy and self-improvement. It's hard to strike a balance between pushing him out of the nest and putting him in situations he genuinely can't handle. Best guess is he'll get his own apartment in a year or so, and live nearby but more on his own for the self-respect and practice of being more fully responsible for his own day to day existence. In the meantime he has, without being asked, sprung for some ordered-in food, sometimes cooks for us, consistently helps with housework. In other words this is a completely different attitude from my daughter. To whatever extent he does not live up to the usual self-sufficiency and behavioral expectations of a normal 27 year old, he's genuinely unable.
3. I loaned money to one of my older brothers; he was, in the past, an inspiration and mentor to me. He fell on hard times for various reasons, most proximally his wife's medical expenses and his lack of having any medical insurance. I did two things: I helped him with some bridge funding and urged him to take a union job with health benefits, which he did. He paid me back ahead of schedule. He did not ask me for the $$ and has never asked since that round of assistance (it's been over 10 years). This strikes me as a pretty clear-cut good decision with no downsides given that, at the time, I could afford it. This is what family is for.
So there you have it -- a No, a provisional Yes, and an enthusiastic Yes.
It's mostly a matter of healthy, clearly stated, and kindly enforced interpersonal boundaries.
There are some family I won’t give money to. If they’re desperate for something I may buy that fir them (food and the like).
There are close friends I have helped out of sticky problems with money, but I wouldn’t make a habit of it.
One family member who had joined a cult, given them all his money, and then screamed “poverty” I simply advised to sell his blood and a couple if organs.
As someone who had depended on their late mother, me, financially my entire life,
the problem isn't giving, the problem is can you afford it.
It is certainly wrong if you can't and it becomes a financial burden on you, in that case you are right to cut them off. But if you can afford it and it isn't draining you, the only expectation you can have is that they don't suck you dry and understand a gift isn't an opportunity to suck you dry.
I had help financially my entire life. But I never would have, nor ever would have taken my mother's last dime. And my late mother was no fool, she never would have let me drain her, and she never did. Nor did I ever think my asking her for help was out of greed, because it was never that.
My mom always expected me to try, no matter what I did. And while she was the financial breadwinner, she always expected me to help her in kind, with whatever I could do, which I did. So as long as you are getting something back, even if not money, but moral or work around the house, then you are fine. It only becomes bad when you give and they are seeking to drain you.
Mutual help isn't always about gender roles or male or female or parent child. It is ok to help family out, as long as they are not draining you and the person asking for help knows you are not a doormat.
Well, I disagree wholeheartedly, but thanks for the advice Brian. There is a very real concern about enabling someone into believe that they don't have to participate in the real world. I think the issue goes much further than just asking, Can I afford it?
But, once again, thanks for your input.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
As someone who had depended on their late mother, me, financially my entire life,
the problem isn't giving, the problem is can you afford it.
It is certainly wrong if you can't and it becomes a financial burden on you, in that case you are right to cut them off. But if you can afford it and it isn't draining you, the only expectation you can have is that they don't suck you dry and understand a gift isn't an opportunity to suck you dry.
I had help financially my entire life. But I never would have, nor ever would have taken my mother's last dime. And my late mother was no fool, she never would have let me drain her, and she never did. Nor did I ever think my asking her for help was out of greed, because it was never that.
My mom always expected me to try, no matter what I did. And while she was the financial breadwinner, she always expected me to help her in kind, with whatever I could do, which I did. So as long as you are getting something back, even if not money, but moral or work around the house, then you are fine. It only becomes bad when you give and they are seeking to drain you.
Mutual help isn't always about gender roles or male or female or parent child. It is ok to help family out, as long as they are not draining you and the person asking for help knows you are not a doormat.
Well, I disagree wholeheartedly, but thanks for the advice Brian. There is a very real concern about enabling someone into believe that they don't have to participate in the real world. I think the issue goes much further than just asking, Can I afford it?
But, once again, thanks for your input.
It is up to you always. Never would claim it shouldn't be. But family is family no matter the age and I do not like the stigma aimed at anyone in need. If if were a charity you were giving to not knowing whom you give it to how would that giving be different just because you know them. Some people need help and there is nothing wrong at all helping others.
If nobody is being abused then it shouldn't matter.
(September 25, 2019 at 7:18 am)Brian37 Wrote: It is up to you always. Never would claim it shouldn't be. But family is family no matter the age and I do not like the stigma aimed at anyone in need. If if were a charity you were giving to not knowing whom you give it to how would that giving be different just because you know them. Some people need help and there is nothing wrong at all helping others.
If nobody is being abused then it shouldn't matter.
I hear what you're coming from. But the phrase "family is family" or "family is all you got" is too often a phrase used by people in toxic family dynamics that choose to put up with, or personally engage in, toxic behavior with their family members, so I'm very careful about using that phrase or listening to the people who use it. No offense.
At the end of the day, I just don't want to enable anyone. It's not about whether or not someone's being abused, it's about whether or not giving this person money was good for them. I think it was a good thing. But, when people start to believe that they don't need to make their own way in the world, it becomes a problem.
I would never allow someone to depend on me, just because I could afford it. Not gonna' happen. Even if I had kids, at a certain age they'd need to learn to help out around the house, and eventually learn how to make their own way out in the real world, without my support.
And, I don't really give to charities. Mostly because I don't know enough about any charities and what they do with the money they receive in order to feel comfortable just blindly having over cash.
I'd rather give to my friend who's in need of cash for his dad who has leukemia, or my cousin who just had a baby and needs money for diapers.
I'm not against giving. I'm against enabling and was asking people to elaborate on where they draw that line.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
I love to help, but I have many criteria, so to speak. I flat-out won’t lend money to many family members. Others, I would help without hesitation. Others still, I would rather purchase necessities for than give cash.
