Incommensurabiliy

[Haipule]

This is why we define terms before we debate so that we know what each other are talking about. Language isn't so loose weave that we can't approach understanding. Although when speaking of deities they are often so poorly defined as to be not much better than nonsense.

Thank you. Yes, sometimes I talk to Christians about God and wonder if they've ever read the bible. Apparently, the theology they profess has become more real to them then the actual revelation itself.

Yet, when I talk to atheists, they think I believe in that God of theology. I don't. Theology is the biggest lie ever told. I didn't realize that until I took it upon myself to read the bible in it's original languages honoring the grammar and syntax. I ended up unraveling a rat nested fishing reel. It took me years! But, I found life and NOT religion: not theology--no ones!

[Rhizomorph13]

This is why we define terms before we debate so that we know what each other are talking about. Language isn't so loose weave that we can't approach understanding. Although when speaking of deities they are often so poorly defined as to be not much better than nonsense.

Thank you. Yes, sometimes I talk to Christians about God and wonder if they've ever read the bible. Apparently, the theology they profess has become more real to them then the actual revelation itself.

Yet, when I talk to atheists, they think I believe in that God of theology. I don't. Theology is the biggest lie ever told. I didn't realize that until I took it upon myself to read the bible in it's original languages honoring the grammar and syntax. I ended up unraveling a rat nested fishing reel. It took me years! But, I found life and NOT religion: not theology--no ones!

I got news for you, that's what all theists do. It is called cherry picking. They brush against ideas and glom onto any that feel truthy then just craft their own religion out of whole cloth and a mixed bag of whatever they fancy.

[Haipule]

Thank you. Yes, sometimes I talk to Christians about God and wonder if they've ever read the bible. Apparently, the theology they profess has become more real to them then the actual revelation itself.

Yet, when I talk to atheists, they think I believe in that God of theology. I don't. Theology is the biggest lie ever told. I didn't realize that until I took it upon myself to read the bible in it's original languages honoring the grammar and syntax. I ended up unraveling a rat nested fishing reel. It took me years! But, I found life and NOT religion: not theology--no ones!

I got news for you, that's what all theists do. It is called cherry picking. They brush against ideas and glom onto any that feel truthy then just craft their own religion out of whole cloth and a mixed bag of whatever they fancy.

Your absativally correct but, that is not news to me. Actually, it's my bitch. Do you know that in order to be a Christian you have to accept the Nicaean Creed and it's all just theological bullshit? The last line of it's original states, "We believe in the Holy Spirit". NO qualification!

It's hilarious, but somehow they established a trinity of God the bible NEVER said! Get this: the Hebrew word translated as 'spirit' is ruwach which means breath. The Greek word translated as 'spirit' is pneuma which means breath. When Jerome translated the original languages into Latin, he translated both ruwach and pneuma as 'spiritus' which also means breath. But, for some crazy insane reason, when they translate into English, they transliterate "spiritus' as Spirit instead of translating the original words written and invented a "Spirit" of both God and man! Theological nonsense!

So, now we gots people running around talking to us about "spirituality". This is madness! If that isn't bad enough, they translate nephesh and psuchE, which both also mean breath, as "soul". So now man, according to them, has a spirit and a soul but the bible is just talking about breathing! They don't even get that! pneuma is inhale information. psuchE is exhale.


So, Ephesians 5:18(the only verse that says this) says, "Be filled with the Spirit(pneuma)". Yet, Paul does NOT say how. Yet, theology invents: he only states why. Yet, theologians for centuries have been telling Christians how to be "spiritual". It's a joke! pneuma just means to inhale a breath usually referring to information gleaned from an outside source other then self. Like reading a book, watching TV, talking to others, etc. pneuma in Ephesians 5:18 is the inhale of breath and Ephesians 5:19 is the exhale. Breath in, breath out--that's it!

Can you imagine that I have to teach breathing:101 to Christians?

[Rhizomorph13]

I don't think much of it makes sense. It used to ALL make sense and I had it all figured out and anybody that raised an objection I just turned into the skid and manufactured an answer on the spot! I didn't realize that I was doing that but I was. I was also a victim of confirmation bias; a particularly insidious trick of the mind that still gets on top of me sometimes.

[Haipule]

I don't think much of it makes sense. It used to ALL make sense and I had it all figured out and anybody that raised an objection I just turned into the skid and manufactured an answer on the spot! I didn't realize that I was doing that but I was. I was also a victim of confirmation bias; a particularly insidious trick of the mind that still gets on top of me sometimes.

At least it's only "sometimes". The most valuable thing here is your own life. It is the only truth you got. Life is the only truth that matters. If you stand by that truth: it's very hard to be lied to. Our own lives are the best source of truth. Although, it must be experienced and learned from. That's how I got where I am. That's how you got where you are. That's how anyone gets anywhere. But, they then become very valuable teachers.

"But Bill: truth is a relative reality!" Well, so is your life which is truth to me and you. It may be incommensurable to me but, that just means I'm too stupid.

I have to face my own life Sir. Thank you for yours! It helps all of us!

I've said this many times: the only thing that can prove to you of the existence of God is your own life. Look closely my friend.

[Rhizomorph13]

I believe in an objective reality and feel that our own knowledge is only as valuable as what jives with consensus reality i.e. what is demonstrable to others.

[The Grand Nudger]

 They brush against ideas and glom onto any that feel truthy then just craft their own religion out of whole cloth and a mixed bag of whatever they fancy.

It's worth mentioning that this is religion working as intended.  It's not a malfunction.  The strength and tenacity of a set of religious beliefs is in direct proportion to it's amenability for personal interpretation and conceptual revision.  Orthodoxies rise and fall because one generation of believer is rarely interchangeable with the last - even as those believers demand a sense of continuity in their faiths.   

Hai's re-imagining of christianity is a great example of this, and the phenomena of the borrowed ladder that initially propelled christian thought.

-and for you, Hai

OFC theology is more real than the contents of the myth from which it's derived. This is never not the case. The theological merit of the loaves and fishes, for example, far outweighs the fact that this was never some news story from a coastal fishing village. Similarly, classical myths about sun gods retained their theological merit long after the cultures who manufactured them stopped believing that a charioteer drove a star through the sky. That merit is retained even today, when we know better -and- when we no longer accept any portion of their religious beliefs at a conceptual level.

Your own theology is also more "real"...to you, than the myth you've selected as a backdrop to glean whatever amount of credibility and deference it might offer. If you didn't pretend that you based this on magic book...and magic books real original message™.....you'd sound like a nutter, even to yourself. Before you get too worked up..remember from above, this is religion working as intended. I'm not criticizing, in fact I would applaud you for finding a way to take a barbaric myth and bend it to your much improved and modern sensibilities. The world would be a shittier place if the lot of you hadn't been doing that for all these years.

[Ranjr]

So, Ephesians 5:18(the only verse that says this) says, "Be filled with the Spirit(pneuma)". Yet, Paul does NOT say how. Yet, theology invents: he only states why. Yet, theologians for centuries have been telling Christians how to be "spiritual". It's a joke! pneuma just means to inhale a breath usually referring to information gleaned from an outside source other then self. Like reading a book, watching TV, talking to others, etc. pneuma in Ephesians 5:18 is the inhale of breath and Ephesians 5:19 is the exhale. Breath in, breath out--that's it!

Can you imagine that I have to teach breathing:101 to Christians?

Christian yoga would likely play well in megachurches.  They would televise it. 

Have you ever looked into how the Latin term for Venus, Lucifer, became a name for Satan?  Isaiah tagged a dead Babylonian king with "morning star," as a metaphor for the kings fall from godlike aspirations to the grave, through his own hubris.  Over time, this metaphor aligned with the fallen angel story.  It shows memes, the Dawkins kind, at work.

[polymath257]

Dang. I was hoping for a discussion of irrational numbers and not irrational ideas....

[Haipule]

So, Ephesians 5:18(the only verse that says this) says, "Be filled with the Spirit(pneuma)". Yet, Paul does NOT say how. Yet, theology invents: he only states why. Yet, theologians for centuries have been telling Christians how to be "spiritual". It's a joke! pneuma just means to inhale a breath usually referring to information gleaned from an outside source other then self. Like reading a book, watching TV, talking to others, etc. pneuma in Ephesians 5:18 is the inhale of breath and Ephesians 5:19 is the exhale. Breath in, breath out--that's it!

Can you imagine that I have to teach breathing:101 to Christians?

Christian yoga would likely play well in megachurches.  They would televise it. 

Have you ever looked into how the Latin term for Venus, Lucifer, became a name for Satan?  Isaiah tagged a dead Babylonian king with "morning star," as a metaphor for the kings fall from godlike aspirations to the grave, through his own hubris.  Over time, this metaphor aligned with the fallen angel story.  It shows memes, the Dawkins kind, at work.

Satan's name is Louis Cifer. I once called him "Lou". And he pulls a Colonel Jessup/Nancy Pelosi on me and said, "I didn't raise to the rank of "Cherub who Covers", and rule the world for millions of years just so you can call me "Lou"! 'You call me Lou Sir!" So, I've been calling him Loser ever since!