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The Romans tried to save the Republic
#1
The Romans tried to save the Republic
from men like Trump, but they failed

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#America wasn't built in a day
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#2
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 12:14 pm)Fierce Wrote: from men like Trump, but they failed

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Actually from my point of view it is a myth that the Romans and Greeks were the first form of modern democracy. 

It is true they had a form of "representative government". But both were still under imperial rule.  Ultimate power was still handed down through family.  One can only argue that one ruler was more tolerant than another depending on era. 

If I remember correctly there were failed attempts to unseat a ruling family and scrap the idea of ruling families.
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#3
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 12:21 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 9, 2020 at 12:14 pm)Fierce Wrote: from men like Trump, but they failed

Read

Actually from my point of view it is a myth that the Romans and Greeks were the first form of modern democracy. 

It is true they had a form of "representative government". But both were still under imperial rule.  Ultimate power was still handed down through family.  One can only argue that one ruler was more tolerant than another depending on era. 

If I remember correctly there were failed attempts to unseat a ruling family and scrap the idea of ruling families.

You're suggesting that Athens had a 'ruling family'?  Doh
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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#4
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 12:34 pm)Mr Greene Wrote:
(March 9, 2020 at 12:21 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Actually from my point of view it is a myth that the Romans and Greeks were the first form of modern democracy. 

It is true they had a form of "representative government". But both were still under imperial rule.  Ultimate power was still handed down through family.  One can only argue that one ruler was more tolerant than another depending on era. 

If I remember correctly there were failed attempts to unseat a ruling family and scrap the idea of ruling families.

You're suggesting that Athens had a 'ruling family'?

Depending on era, yes.

Classism back then makes western classism today look like wimps. In the west at least, although we are failing, and falling backwards, the class system in the west is supposed to not let extreem gaps happen. But in all of antiquity worldwide, back then, it was far worse. If you were not part of the ruling class or military class, you were basically a tool for them. 

If you want to argue there was no "official" mandate depending on ruler, sure, you could do that, but nepotism existed even back then and it was far worse.
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#5
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 9, 2020 at 12:34 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: You're suggesting that Athens had a 'ruling family'?

Depending on era, yes.

Classism back then makes western classism today look like wimps. In the west at least, although we are failing, and falling backwards, the class system in the west is supposed to not let extreem gaps happen. But in all of antiquity worldwide, back then, it was far worse. If you were not part of the ruling class or military class, you were basically a tool for them. 

If you want to argue there was no "official" mandate depending on ruler, sure, you could do that, but nepotism existed even back then and it was far worse.

The fact that there were powerful families in the greek democracy or the roman republic does not mean tha there was an "imperial rule".
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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#6
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 1:07 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:
(March 9, 2020 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Depending on era, yes.

Classism back then makes western classism today look like wimps. In the west at least, although we are failing, and falling backwards, the class system in the west is supposed to not let extreem gaps happen. But in all of antiquity worldwide, back then, it was far worse. If you were not part of the ruling class or military class, you were basically a tool for them. 

If you want to argue there was no "official" mandate depending on ruler, sure, you could do that, but nepotism existed even back then and it was far worse.

The fact that there were powerful families in the greek democracy or the roman republic does not mean tha there was an "imperial rule".

Both of them had what amounts to a "Caesar".  Just like Zeus and Apollo were comparative names. 

It still amounts to a ruling class.
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#7
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 1:15 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 9, 2020 at 1:07 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: The fact that there were powerful families in the greek democracy or the roman republic does not mean tha there was an "imperial rule".

Both of them had what amounts to a "Caesar".  Just like Zeus and Apollo were comparative names. 

It still amounts to a ruling class.

You should look up these things before you say them.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#8
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 1:15 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 9, 2020 at 1:07 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: The fact that there were powerful families in the greek democracy or the roman republic does not mean tha there was an "imperial rule".

Both of them had what amounts to a "Caesar".  Just like Zeus and Apollo were comparative names. 

It still amounts to a ruling class.

I repeat: no imperial rule until, and including, Caesar. Please get yourself informed. Dodgy
Same for greece. You are simply, and demonstrably, wrong.

Please dont triple down on your ignorance.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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#9
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 1:37 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:
(March 9, 2020 at 1:15 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Both of them had what amounts to a "Caesar".  Just like Zeus and Apollo were comparative names. 

It still amounts to a ruling class.

I repeat: no imperial rule until, and including, Caesar. Please get yourself informed. Dodgy
Same for greece. You are simply, and demonstrably, wrong.

Please dont triple down on your ignorance.

To falsely equate what the Greeks and Romans had in antiquity as being equal to our modern concepts of checks and balances the west has today, is absurd.
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#10
RE: The Romans tried to save the Republic
(March 9, 2020 at 2:49 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 9, 2020 at 1:37 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: I repeat: no imperial rule until, and including, Caesar. Please get yourself informed. Dodgy
Same for greece. You are simply, and demonstrably, wrong.

Please dont triple down on your ignorance.

To falsely equate what the Greeks and Romans had in antiquity as being equal to our modern concepts of checks and balances the west has today, is absurd.

Actually, the Greek city states and the Roman republic both had rather elaborate systems of checks and balances. No sure why you brought this up, though, as no one here was trying to equate their systems with ours.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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