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Question about "faith"
#21
RE: Question about "faith"
faith
/fāTH/

noun
noun: faith
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"

2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.


The problem with the word 'faith' is some people tend to switch back and forth between the senses of the word in order to equivocate. I have faith in the first sense, but not in the second. The OP is defining faith in the first sense, which has nothing to do with belief in God, gods, or religion. If he sticks to that he'll be fine, if he starts talking about faith in God, that's a whole different animal.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#22
RE: Question about "faith"
(September 10, 2020 at 8:43 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I agree with Bel regarding having faith in the consistency of nature.

There's no reason for me to think the sun won't come up in the morning.  It may be cloud-covered but it will be there.  Ocean waves will ebb and flow.  It will rain when the weatherman says it won't and vice versa.  

Faith in people?  I think it's more a matter of having trust in certain people that is based on their past actions.  I think trust is a more fitting word then faith.

Is it safe to say that your "trust" in people is based on individual experiences with individual folks, and not based off a "faith" or absolute trust in humans as a whole, trusting the consistency of physical nature (the sun comes up) more than the inconsistency of human nature? (people lie and are deceitful)

I understand what you're saying. excellent point.
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#23
RE: Question about "faith"
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
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#24
RE: Question about "faith"
I have faith that the next chair I sit on won't fall apart and leave me sitting on the floor. It's faith in the sense of 'trust' and there's a silent 'probably' contained in my use of the word faith. My faith in chairs is based on long observation, but if it looks or feels rickety or fragile my faith in it's ability to support me will be much reduced. This sense of the word faith is basically tentatively holding a conclusion based on inductive reasoning.

Is this question ever going to tie back to not believing in God or gods, the only thing all atheists have in common?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#25
RE: Question about "faith"
(September 10, 2020 at 11:35 pm)outtathereligioncloset Wrote: I have faith that there is no Grand Plan.  I have some faith in science, medicine and the general power of education.  I have a great deal of faith in Chaos.

Faith that chaos is a negative, or positive? I understand "some" faith in science and medicine. Faith in the general power of education, such as teaching folks to wash their food will cut down on the spread of E coli? or that through education one attains a high level of understanding.

As in, the more you are educated, the less need there is to depend on "faith" as a religious foundation for your understanding of the future.


excellent post, thank you!

(September 11, 2020 at 12:11 am)Ranjr Wrote: Sometimes I have faith that things will be okay despite indications they will not.  It serves to keep me focused on performing tasks that increase the likelihood that things will be okay.

So, your faith that things will be okay, despite evidence it won't, is an internal "hope"?

Thank you! great post!

(September 11, 2020 at 5:37 am)no one Wrote: I don't have "faith", that humans are an awful, downright laughably retarded creature.

There's just centuries of evidence, to reinforce and uphold said viewpoint.

It is just straight up fact. Faith, on the other hand, is the human equivalent of baaa baaa baaa.


So, have you any wool?

Is seeing humans as "downright laughably retarded creatures" how you see ALL, including yourself? Or only those that are different in beliefs from yourself. Are you able to see good in mankind as a whole? Or are you simply convinced that mankind is an evolved creature, flawed , and therefore mankind 's actions reflect flawed evolution. That mankind isn't getting better as time goes on.

Great post, thank you!

(September 11, 2020 at 6:17 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I tend to agree with Bertrand Russell that faith (as defined by the OP) is an intellectual dead end. In other words, once you possess ‘complete confidence and trust’ in any proposition, you’re stuck. Faith, absent evidence and reason, atrophies our ability - and even our desire - to learn new stuff.

Furthermore, religious faith (and it’s pretty plain that that’s what the OP is getting at) by its very nature creates insoluble conflicts. Muslims have faith that Mohammed was the last prophet. Mormons have a markedly different opinion. Both of these beliefs cannot be correct, primarily because they’re faith-based. It isn't like conflicting views about human evolution or the amount of dark matter in the universe - a belief held by faith is impenetrable to evidence and reason by its very nature.

Boru

thank you! excellent answer.

I understand the difference between "FAITH in God" and "FAITH the airplane won't fall from the sky". I'm sure you and I share the exact same faith that the when the light switch is flipped the light will come on, unless evidence (power outage) proves otherwise.

But where we would part is faith in an eternity. Is it safe to say, respectfully, that as an atheist, you have no hope, or faith, in any kind of life after death, and that after death the body just decays to dust.

Would it also be safe to say that as atheists you don't believe that inside you there is a soul that makes you an individual, but that individuality who you really are is made up in the brain.

I can't thank you enough again for this open conversation. If the rules allow, I'd appreciate if anyone can recommend some good books on atheism, I'd greatly appreciate it.

(September 11, 2020 at 9:55 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: I have faith that the next chair I sit on won't fall apart and leave me sitting on the floor. It's faith in the sense of 'trust' and there's a silent 'probably' contained in my use of the word faith. My faith in chairs is based on long observation, but if it looks or feels rickety or fragile my faith in it's ability to support me will be much reduced. This sense of the word faith is basically tentatively holding a conclusion based on inductive reasoning.

Is this question ever going to tie back to not believing in God or gods, the only thing all atheists have in common?

extremely interesting statement "...Is this question ever going to tie back to not believing in God or gods, the only thing all atheists have in common?..."

My question to an atheist is not "why don't you have "eternal faith in God", but what do you have "eternal faith" in? If anything. If you feel that that the word "faith" is more of a religious term, then it would be very hard for you to relate to the question about faith. It wouldn't apply to you, it would be an unfair question. 

Would it be safe to say, that an atheist doesn't have "eternal faith" in anything...not even nature will last, our sun will eventually burn out a bazillion years from now.

Great Post !! Thank you!!
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#26
RE: Question about "faith"
Since faith is a human quality, attaching eternal to faith is a bit of a reach for atheists.

There may be eternal things, human faith is not one of them.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem




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#27
RE: Question about "faith"
(September 11, 2020 at 10:37 am)brewer Wrote: Since faith is a human quality, attaching eternal to faith is a bit of a reach for atheists.

There may be eternal things, human faith is not one of them.

brewer, could you please tell me, is "atheism" considered a human religious belief system, even though a deity isn't worshipped? Or would an atheist consider themselves 100% void of any spiritual belief. That they simply exist one day, and they don't the next.

Thank you!!
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#28
RE: Question about "faith"
[Image: icon_quote.jpg]this guy:
I don't have "faith", that humans are an awful, downright laughably retarded creature.

There's just centuries of evidence, to reinforce and uphold said viewpoint.

It is just straight up fact. Faith, on the other hand, is the human equivalent of baaa baaa baaa.


So, have you any wool?


[Image: icon_quote.jpg]The Rockford Files:
Is seeing humans as "downright laughably retarded creatures" how you see ALL, including yourself? Or only those that are different in beliefs from yourself. Are you able to see good in mankind as a whole? Or are you simply convinced that mankind is an evolved creature, flawed , and therefore mankind 's actions reflect flawed evolution. That mankind isn't getting better as time goes on.


Human beings, as a species, are absolutely appalling. They choose to willfully mistreat one another. They choose to persistently spew bitterness, and outright hatred, over inconsequential and meaningless differences. I like individual persons, but I fucking hate people.
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#29
RE: Question about "faith"
(September 11, 2020 at 9:57 am)rockyrockford Wrote:



(September 11, 2020 at 6:17 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I tend to agree with Bertrand Russell that faith (as defined by the OP) is an intellectual dead end. In other words, once you possess ‘complete confidence and trust’ in any proposition, you’re stuck. Faith, absent evidence and reason, atrophies our ability - and even our desire - to learn new stuff.

Furthermore, religious faith (and it’s pretty plain that that’s what the OP is getting at) by its very nature creates insoluble conflicts. Muslims have faith that Mohammed was the last prophet. Mormons have a markedly different opinion. Both of these beliefs cannot be correct, primarily because they’re faith-based. It isn't like conflicting views about human evolution or the amount of dark matter in the universe - a belief held by faith is impenetrable to evidence and reason by its very nature.

Boru

thank you! excellent answer.

I understand the difference between "FAITH in God" and "FAITH the airplane won't fall from the sky". I'm sure you and I share the exact same faith that the when the light switch is flipped the light will come on, unless evidence (power outage) proves otherwise.

But where we would part is faith in an eternity. Is it safe to say, respectfully, that as an atheist,  you have no hope, or faith, in any kind of life after death, and that after death the body just decays to dust.

Would it also be safe to say that as atheists you don't believe that inside you there is a soul that makes you an individual, but that individuality who you really are is made up in the brain.

I can't thank you enough again for this open conversation. If the rules allow, I'd appreciate if anyone can recommend some good books on atheism, I'd greatly appreciate it.



1. Yes, it is fair to say that I have no hope or faith in an afterlife of any sort.

2. It is safe for me to say that I don’t believe in a soul, as you seem to mean the term (I don’t presume to speak for other atheists). I believe that individuality is the sum total of an individual’s memories and experiences. So, yes - it’s fair to say that I believe that individuality is a consequence of brain function.

3. You’re very welcome.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#30
RE: Question about "faith"
(September 11, 2020 at 9:57 am)rockyrockford Wrote: extremely interesting statement "...Is this question ever going to tie back to not believing in God or gods, the only thing all atheists have in common?..."

My question to an atheist is not "why don't you have "eternal faith in God", but what do you have "eternal faith" in? If anything. If you feel that that the word "faith" is more of a religious term, then it would be very hard for you to relate to the question about faith. It wouldn't apply to you, it would be an unfair question. 

Would it be safe to say, that an atheist doesn't have "eternal faith" in anything...not even nature will last, our sun will eventually burn out a bazillion years from now.

Great Post !! Thank you!!

The mind has a network of beliefs about how the world works.  This provides an internal model of the world that allows for prediction.

My understanding of electricity generation, house wiring, the nature of switches (plus the feedback of 1000's of successful switching events, setting a probability) tells me that when I flip my light-switch on, the light will likely go on.

The better the belief network, the better the predictive abilities.  I recognize, however, that some of my beliefs may be WRONG yet the network mostly works anyway.

Faith, in terms of "absolute trust" plays very little role.  I may have faith that I exist, and the laws of the universe aren't going to flip overnight.  But, I could be wrong, and we are all in a simulation and it will stop tomorrow.  I just assign the probability as too small to worry about.

Now, if you want to define faith as "hope", I can see that hope is useful in some circumstances.  Hope allows us to take calculated risks, when our prediction ability is limited.

But "absolute trust" is a maladaptive trait.  Nothing deserves absolute trust, because there is never evidence enough to justify "absolute" anything.
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