The United States of inclusivity

[The Grand Nudger]

So do I, and they're all from here. That's hardly a barrier to inclusivity in a culture premised on white supremacy, so ofc I won't mind people who use bigoted language coming here.

Inclusivity isn't just for people who've never blurted out the n-word (or whatever the n word is where they're from)..and, arguably, people who do blurt out the n-word are going to get better returns for imagined and real contact than others.

[Apollo]

So do I, and they're all from here.  That's hardly a barrier to inclusivity in a culture premised on white supremacy, so ofc I won't mind people who use bigoted language coming here.

But you do realize that there are places in public sphere where anti-gay, anti-semitism, and racial slurs etc have consequences, right? All I'm saying is that in same places everyone should be expected to behave accordingly and held accountable equally and just because someone is from a culture where such things are accepted should not earn them a free pass.

[The Grand Nudger]

There's no place where bigoted slurs don't have consequences.

Are girls wearing pants getting a free pass? If that's not a free pass, neither is a hijab.

[Belacqua]

So if some whites think the N word or blackfacing or confederate flags are artifacts of harmless cultural heritage, does it make them so?

No. Look at what I said: the meaning of a symbol is decided by the culture which uses it. Not outlying individuals. 

Confederate flags represent a constellation of ideas. People who proudly display these flags may be aware to different degrees, but the meaning of the flag historically is closely associated with certain things, like pro-slavery and white supremacy, which are abhorrent. It is an artifact of a cultural heritage, but the heritage contains terrible things. Being proud of that flag means you are proud of those abhorrent facts, and anyone with the most minimal understanding of history knows that.

An individual can't decide that the confederate flag stands for something completely different from the meaning the culture gives it.

People who use the Pride flag, the rainbow flag, have decided that it stands for equality and inclusivity. You can't decide on your own that it stands for pedophilia, because the people who use it don't agree with you.

As for the hijab: you say it is a symbol of patriarchy and oppression. You yourself are not able to decide the meaning, just as you can't say the Pride flag means pedophilia. To understand the meaning of the hijab, you would have to talk to the people who wear it. How many would agree with your interpretation? Would Ilhan Omar? If to them it means something other than the meaning you give it, you are not allowed to declare what it "really" means.

To show that modern women who choose to wear the hijab are wrong and you are right, you'd have to show that it is still associated in their minds with the negative things you point to.

[Apollo]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...countries/

[Belacqua]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...countries/

Does anything in this survey support your idea that the hijab is a symbol of patriarchal oppression?

[Apollo]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...countries/

Does anything in this survey support your idea that the hijab is a symbol of patriarchal oppression?

Not really but my purpose was to show its predominance—for rest I am sure you can google all the way going back to hadiths, traditions, and present days laws in various countries if interested.

[Belacqua]

Does anything in this survey support your idea that the hijab is a symbol of patriarchal oppression?

Not really but my purpose was to show its predominance—for rest I am sure you can google all the way going back to hadiths, traditions, and present days laws in various countries if interested.

To demonstrate that such modesty is patriarchal oppression, you'd need evidence and testimony from the people who follow these customs. 

I am not willing to accept the word of western liberals who assume that it's oppression.

The amount that a person has to cover his or her body in public varies widely from culture to culture, and tends to be based more on cultural norms than on explicit religious dictates. 

France is a traditionally Catholic country, but women in the south of France are a lot more comfortable going topless than in other Catholic countries. Someone who went topless into a Walmart in Nebraska would get arrested. Is this due to greater patriarchal oppression? 100 years ago in Japan, women doing certain jobs would go topless. 30 years ago Japanese TV had topless women in prime time. No more. Yet other indicators (e.g. # of women in the work force) indicates less patriarchal oppression. So the social norms indicating what parts of the body can be shown vary by time and place, may change relatively quickly, and are often not at all perceived by women as being oppression. 

That's why we'd need to know the opinions of the Muslim women wearing hijabs before we judged it by our own standards.

[Apollo]

I am not a western liberal—I was born in an Islamic country where apostasy and blasphemy are punished by death, women killed by their brothers or father for liking someone, beaten or threatened with violence for not covering their head, and have husbands throw acid on wives’ faces for sundry disobedience reasons—recently the head of the ideological religious council that advises the government has decreed beating wife lightly is legal and permissible under religious law, which btw it is because it says right there in the quran so he is not lying.

So no, hijab is very much not a 7th century fashion statement made its way to modernity because it’s so awesome. I have first hand seen how makes into violence towards women.

---

This btw even happens in west—although not frequently.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-crime...4720071211

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...lunch.html

https://www.rt.com/news/408129-father-be...ter-hijab/

https://www.newsbreak.com/news/151423517...ring-hijab

https://www.india.com/viral/man-drags14-...ab-745868/

[Belacqua]

very much not a 7th century fashion statement

I never said it was a fashion statement. I said it was a cultural norm.

For the record, I am against doing violence to women who don't wish to abide by the modesty norms of their societies. A Nebraska woman who insisted on going nude into Walmart shouldn't be beaten, she should be covered and spoken with. And given psychological counseling, probably. The store does have the right to ban her, however.