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Logical Absolutes
#21
RE: Logical Absolutes
(March 21, 2021 at 10:28 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(March 21, 2021 at 10:25 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: ”Nothing existed” is logically contradictory, but that’s beside the point. I don’t know if I’m comfortable with the word “rules” here. I’d say descriptions of a world requires, first,  a world; to describe.

Do 0 federation starships exist?

Let me clarify: I don’t mean a thing can’t not exist. I mean, no things at all can’t exist. 

I know...super clear now, right? 😛
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#22
RE: Logical Absolutes
(March 21, 2021 at 10:37 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:
(March 21, 2021 at 10:28 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Do 0 federation starships exist?

Let me clarify: I don’t mean a thing can’t not exist. I mean, no things at all can’t exist. 

I know...super clear now, right? 😛

It was a trick question, because zero is one of those mathematical abstracts which doesn't fit the mold of being a mere representation of material quantities.
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#23
RE: Logical Absolutes
(March 21, 2021 at 10:40 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(March 21, 2021 at 10:37 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Let me clarify: I don’t mean a thing can’t not exist. I mean, no things at all can’t exist. 

I know...super clear now, right? 😛

It was a trick question, because zero is one of those mathematical abstracts which doesn't fit the mold of being a mere representation of material quantities.

But, without an existing world with a non-zero number of various things in it, what meaning does the figure 0 have?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#24
RE: Logical Absolutes
(March 21, 2021 at 10:46 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:
(March 21, 2021 at 10:40 pm)Angrboda Wrote: It was a trick question, because zero is one of those mathematical abstracts which doesn't fit the mold of being a mere representation of material quantities.

But, without an existing world with a non-zero number of various things in it, what meaning does the figure 0 have?

Apophatic prayer and meditation attempts to identify God by focusing on what he is not. But what does it really mean for something to not be what other things are?
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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#25
RE: Logical Absolutes
(March 21, 2021 at 10:54 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(March 21, 2021 at 10:46 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: But, without an existing world with a non-zero number of various things in it, what meaning does the figure 0 have?

Apophatic prayer and meditation attempts to identify God by focusing on what he is not.  But what does it really mean for something to not be what other things are?

They’re both still referential in the context of stuff existing. Without the existence of things, how can we make a distinction between something existing or not existing, or 2 amount of things versus 0 amount of things?

I’ve been drinking, bear with me. 😂
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#26
RE: Logical Absolutes
(March 21, 2021 at 10:25 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: The second half of the theist claim is that their world view solves this problem, and I don’t think it does.

Yes, I recall that you're an atheist.
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#27
RE: Logical Absolutes
(March 21, 2021 at 11:34 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(March 21, 2021 at 10:25 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: The second half of the theist claim is that their world view solves this problem, and I don’t think it does.

Yes, I recall that you're an atheist.

From what I can recall so are you.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#28
RE: Logical Absolutes
In fairness to all sides, It's very difficult to comment on absolutes. We are speaking theoretically only from within our sandbox. A world awaits on the other side which we can never reach, only speculate. Dunno

Just when I think we're an intelligent species, I remember that we still power most of the world by burning coal and making steam ... (where's my banana?)
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#29
RE: Logical Absolutes
(March 21, 2021 at 10:15 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(March 21, 2021 at 7:47 pm)polymath257 Wrote: And do the other statements I made also 'reflect metaphysical truths'?

Does it 'reflect a metaphysical truth' to say that a certain chess position allows mate in 3 moves? Because, when it comes down to it, mathematical 'truths' are in the same category as that statement.

We can make a rook move like a bishop, or a queen like a pawn.  Mathematical objects are not thusly mutable.  2 + 2 = 4 can only be changed by changing the entire system, but then you've just created an isomorphism.

ETA: The rules of chess which describe mating in three moves constitute a system which is entangled with the laws of logic and mathematics, so your question isn't very informative.

Making a rook move like a bishop is violating the rules that were set up, sort of like writing 2+2=5. If you change the rules, you get different results.

We have certain rules in mathematics. They are called the axioms. But, in contrast to what Euclid thought, those axioms are NOT 'intuitively obvious rules of thought'. Other systems of axioms are possible and are studied in math,

For example, there is a system where 1+1=1. In that system, we still have 2+2=4, but 2=1 and 4=1. Furthermore, that system is quite useful when studying logic (it corresponds to 'or'). There are also *many* systems where addition or multiplication are not commutative (the answer may depend on the order in which you do things).

We *choose* particular mathematical systems to help us model things in the universe. The system for chess is not very useful in that regard, but the system involving differential equations is. That doesn't mean that differential calculus is more than our language for describing things.
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#30
RE: Logical Absolutes
See, that's why I did good in math class up till seventh grade. It just gets too complicated for hormonal teenage minds to properly comprehend.
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