[Serious] Good People

[vulcanlogician]

Aren't you being a bit dramatic?

[brewer]

How much sacrifice a person ought to make is a separate issue from is it okay to coerce people to make "x" sacrifice.

I think that's a good distinction. And it begins to expose the core of what I find alarming, namely, the hypocrisy of mistreating people while expecting them to do good. Once people categorize you as a bad person, they find it justified to do bad things to you. The internet is full of videos of people verbally (and sometimes physically) abusing others for not wearing a mask. There's an irony in that which I'm trying to decipher.

One person is doing wrong to someone, because that person is failing to do good for others. Which is worse? (Another example: Celebrities often get donation-shamed.)

There are also vids with people being shamed for wearing a mask. People are going to pass judgement based on their personal/groups position.

To put it simply, two wrongs don't make a right.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Aren't you being a bit dramatic?

If I was being overdramatic, we wouldn't be having an antivaxxer problem. Research shows that many vaccine deniers have a higher aversion to bodily impurity. They view it as a violation of their body to have a foreign substance introduced into it in such and invasive manner.

In fact, here's a hypothesis to test whether I'm being dramatic or not. Brewer shared an article once about the possibility of oral vaccinations. If I'm right, I would predict an increase in vaccination acceptance, which could not be accounted for under a "people are just ignorant and evil" model. (Note that the variable that's changing here isn't the act of vaccination, but the route of administration. From a highly invasive one to a passive digestive one).

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There are also vids with people being shamed for wearing a mask.

That's true. Fair enough.

[Peebothuhlu]

Hello again John 6IX Breezy.

Before I stick an oar into this stream. Might I ask as to your current understanding about 'What' the Covid 19 vrus us?

What do you think of the Covid 19 virus? What do you kow about it?

Myself? I am certainly no Rhode's scholar. I'm just an average, blue collar Joe.

Looking forwards to further discourse with yourself.

Cheers.

Not at work.

[Belacqua]

I've come across an idea that I find alarming. (I've no doubt encountered it as a result of the pandemic, but its application is not restricted to it.) 

The idea is this: You are an evil person if you do not make sacrifices for the greater good. As a tangible example: If you do not take the vaccine (and whatever risks are associated with it) you are an evil person by failing to protect others. It is something like forced kindness, perhaps to the exclusion of personal safety and autonomy.

This thread isn't about vaccines, but about this specific argument. There are millions of scenarios that can be enforced using the same argument. China's one child policy is perhaps another example. You sacrifice your fertility for the greater good of others. (I'm not knowledgeable in ethics. My guess is that it is a utilitarian argument. One that values the group above the individual.)

The question: Is this approach to morality beneficial or dangerous? Should there be any limitations to it?

It looks as if you're framing this between two concepts: freedom and sacrifice. That any encroachment on our individual freedom is seen as a forced and painful taking-away -- a sacrifice. This looks like a modern, American, more or less consumerist vision to me. 

The term "duty" hasn't appeared in the thread yet, I think. It used to be something important. In earlier times I suspect it would have come up right away. 

Is duty always sacrifice? Is that bad? 

This is from Wikipedia:

Kant's conception of duty does not entail that people perform their duties grudgingly. Although duty often constrains people and prompts them to act against their inclinations, it still comes from an agent's volition: they desire to keep the moral law. Thus, when an agent performs an action from duty it is because the rational incentives matter to them more than their opposing inclinations. Kant wished to move beyond the conception of morality as externally imposed duties, and present an ethics of autonomy, when rational agents freely recognize the claims reason makes upon them.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Hello again John 6IX Breezy.

Before I stick an oar into this stream. Might I ask as to your current understanding about 'What' the Covid 19 vrus us?

What do you think of the Covid 19 virus? What do you kow about it?

Myself? I am certainly no Rhode's scholar. I'm just an average, blue collar Joe.

Looking forwards to further discourse with yourself.

Cheers.

Not at work.

Hmm before switching to psychology I was in the process of studying medical laboratory science, so I've taken courses in microbiology and immunology. (I was also an EMT for a brief period of time). At the beginning of the pandemic I was invested in the literature that was coming out, but fatigue settled in. So I would say that what I know about Covid-19 is isolated to the first few months of its appearance, and I haven't kept up with the research since. However, I do regularly listen to a podcast called TWIV, which I recommend, and they summarize current issues perfectly. I'm fully vaccinated as well.

[Peebothuhlu]

Hmm before switching to psychology I was in the process of studying medical laboratory science, so I've taken courses in microbiology and immunology. (I was also an EMT for a brief period of time). At the beginning of the pandemic I was invested in the literature that was coming out, but fatigue settled in. So I would say that what I know about Covid-19 is isolated to the first few months of its appearance, and I haven't kept up with the research since. Although I do regularly listen to a podcast I recommend called TWIV, which summarizes much of the current topics. I'm fully vaccinated as well.

So... you have some qualifications... but are not voicing what it is you think/know about said virus?

Okay.

[John 6IX Breezy]

So... you have some qualifications... but are not voicing what it is you think/know about said virus?

Okay.

Coronaviruses have some of the longest RNA sequences; they often mutate slowly as a result. I suppose there's a long list of things I could say about the virus, but nothing that isn't already known. Perhaps your question is more political than scientific, which I personally have no opinions about.

[Peebothuhlu]

Coronaviruses have some of the longest RNA sequences; they often mutate slowly as a result. I suppose there's a long list of things I could say about the virus, but nothing that isn't already known. Perhaps your question is more political than scientific, which I personally have no opinions about.

No. My question was more seeking an understanding of your knowledge of the topic.

So. You know this virus is brand, spanking new?

You know that should some one contract/become infected they have NO natural immunities to said virus?

You have possibly been keeping abreat of this virus' "Morbitity"?

*Scratches head*

What is it about the Government of a country seeking to ensure that its citizens are "protected' against something which has a high chance of killing them that is having you look askance at the topic?

Cheers.

[John 6IX Breezy]

It looks as if you're framing this between two concepts: freedom and sacrifice. That any encroachment on our individual freedom is seen as a forced and painful taking-away -- a sacrifice. This looks like a modern, American, more or less consumerist vision to me. 

Yes, I suppose that's true. This is an individualistic society and that is the frame of reference I'm taking. I wouldn't know how to frame the question within a collectivist society.