Divine Hiddenness

[Brian37]

I was speaking with a long-time friend of the family, who is a practicing Jew, about prayer and why god doesn’t reveal himself to his creation. His explanation was one that I actually had never heard before. Assuming free will for the sake of the argument, I’d say it’s one of the more reasonable (maybe I should say least irrational) explanations for god’s hiddenness that I’ve heard. If our parents followed us around everywhere we went, would we ever really be free to break the rules? Thoughts? 

“Just as God's purpose does not allow man to be a physical prisoner, neither does it permit him to exist in an intellectual prison. How would man behave if God were to constantly reveal Himself? Would he really be free? If man were constantly made aware that he was standing in the King's presence, could he go against His will? If God's existence were constantly apparent, this awareness would make man a prisoner.“

Meh, seems like the same old melted ice cream with a different flavor. 

I have to admit, not just on this topic, since the early 2000s when I first got online and started debating theists, it never ceases to amaze me how many new ways I run into in which they move the goal posts.

This really isn't a new argument. The idea is to claim that parents have to let their children make their own mistakes. Yea ok, fine, ask this God why he allowed the Holocaust. Surely Anne Frank was evil an deserved to die. As soon as one reads that last sentence the moral justification falls apart. 

"I have to let my child touch the hot pot on the stove to get them to learn their lesson" is basically what this bad argument is. Tell me what Polly Klaas did to deserve a monster dragging her out of her bedroom in the dead of night, raping and murdering her? What did Adam Walsh's kid do to deserve being raped and butchered? 

The first 3 of the 10 Commandments are not about the welfare of humans, be they adults or children. They are all about kissing God's ass. God's primary goal is to have gang members. He might "MIGHT" help you out if you are loyal to him, but then again, if he thinks he can let you die, ADULT OR CHILD, regardless of how, if it brings him more attention, he will let it happen.

[R00tKiT]

I was speaking with a long-time friend of the family, who is a practicing Jew, about prayer and why god doesn’t reveal himself to his creation. His explanation was one that I actually had never heard before. Assuming free will for the sake of the argument, I’d say it’s one of the more reasonable (maybe I should say least irrational) explanations for god’s hiddenness that I’ve heard. If our parents followed us around everywhere we went, would we ever really be free to break the rules? Thoughts? 

“Just as God's purpose does not allow man to be a physical prisoner, neither does it permit him to exist in an intellectual prison. How would man behave if God were to constantly reveal Himself? Would he really be free? If man were constantly made aware that he was standing in the King's presence, could he go against His will? If God's existence were constantly apparent, this awareness would make man a prisoner.“

A god revealing himself is logically impossible. A human being can't comprehend an infinite being or even recognize one through their senses. An actual God and a highly sophisticated alien technology are indistinguishable for a human.

So we are left with reasoning, proof, inference through signs of design... the only way one somehow proves infinite things, thus theology lol.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

...... A human being can't comprehend an infinite being or even recognize one through their senses.......

Uhm..... so how did all those books get written if the limited human senses can't comprehend the 'Infinite' etc that's being 'Revealed'.

Jus' askin'.

[LadyForCamus]

I was speaking with a long-time friend of the family, who is a practicing Jew, about prayer and why god doesn’t reveal himself to his creation. His explanation was one that I actually had never heard before. Assuming free will for the sake of the argument, I’d say it’s one of the more reasonable (maybe I should say least irrational) explanations for god’s hiddenness that I’ve heard. If our parents followed us around everywhere we went, would we ever really be free to break the rules? Thoughts? 

“Just as God's purpose does not allow man to be a physical prisoner, neither does it permit him to exist in an intellectual prison. How would man behave if God were to constantly reveal Himself? Would he really be free? If man were constantly made aware that he was standing in the King's presence, could he go against His will? If God's existence were constantly apparent, this awareness would make man a prisoner.“

A god revealing himself is logically impossible. A human being can't comprehend an infinite being or even recognize one through their senses.

How do you know that?

[LadyForCamus]

I was speaking with a long-time friend of the family, who is a practicing Jew, about prayer and why god doesn’t reveal himself to his creation. His explanation was one that I actually had never heard before. Assuming free will for the sake of the argument, I’d say it’s one of the more reasonable (maybe I should say least irrational) explanations for god’s hiddenness that I’ve heard. If our parents followed us around everywhere we went, would we ever really be free to break the rules? Thoughts? 

“Just as God's purpose does not allow man to be a physical prisoner, neither does it permit him to exist in an intellectual prison. How would man behave if God were to constantly reveal Himself? Would he really be free? If man were constantly made aware that he was standing in the King's presence, could he go against His will? If God's existence were constantly apparent, this awareness would make man a prisoner.“

LFC, it's just another tired argument. A fallacy. Full of loaded assumptions.
It's just another extraordinary claim of us being tested. By something or someone. That's a massive elephant in the room which they accept without battering an eyelid.
For someone like us who haven't swallowed the koolaid, we can see that. For the indoctrinated, they don't even question this ridiculous notion. God is testing us?
If something is a god, then we are just as "important" to "him" as living creations as yeast is to us. There is nothing more arrogant than a man's fragile ego.

Basically, it's just snowflake syndrome.

Sure, I’m not presenting it as an argument for god’s existence. I just found it to be an interesting take on the reason for divine hidenness that I hadn’t come across yet.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

That's easy LadyForCamus.

Klorophyll's magic book tells them so.

[Brian37]

LFC, it's just another tired argument. A fallacy. Full of loaded assumptions.
It's just another extraordinary claim of us being tested. By something or someone. That's a massive elephant in the room which they accept without battering an eyelid.
For someone like us who haven't swallowed the koolaid, we can see that. For the indoctrinated, they don't even question this ridiculous notion. God is testing us?
If something is a god, then we are just as "important" to "him" as living creations as yeast is to us. There is nothing more arrogant than a man's fragile ego.

Basically, it's just snowflake syndrome.

Sure, I’m not presenting it as an argument for god’s existence. I just found it to be an interesting take on the reason for divine hidenness that I hadn’t come across yet.

Again. Been at debate since the early 2000s, and I always run into new recipes for old food.

[R00tKiT]

At work.

  Uhm..... so how did all those books get written if the limited human senses can't comprehend the 'Infinite' etc  that's being 'Revealed'.

 Jus' askin'.

 

Good question. Well, all these books assume God, including the Qur'an. The Qur'an doesn't even address the existence of God, it's considered self-evident or something like a primay axiom, or what they call in philosophy a sensus divinitatis. I would say God allows some people (prophets) to perform a comprehensible miracle to human beings to prove their prophecy to their surroundings. Because people back then usually believed in God, the prophets main task was to transmit how to worship God and not whether he exists or not. 

How do you know that?

The power of our senses is limited. We can't even see a laser beam how can we possibly detect a deity, and even we see what resembles a deity, there is no way to confirm it through senses alone.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

So, no real idea then Klorophyll?

Diety performed selective, 'Personal' (Subjective) individual revelation?

Naffy.

[Brian37]

At work.

  Uhm..... so how did all those books get written if the limited human senses can't comprehend the 'Infinite' etc  that's being 'Revealed'.

 Jus' askin'.

 

Good question. Well, all these books assume God, including the Qur'an. The Qur'an doesn't even address the existence of God, it's considered self-evident or something like a primay axiom, or what they call in philosophy a sensus divinitatis. I would say God allows some people (prophets) to perform a comprehensible miracle to human beings to prove their prophecy to their surroundings. Because people back then usually believed in God, the prophets main task was to transmit how to worship God and not whether he exists or not. 

How do you know that?

The power of our senses is limited. We can't even see a laser beam how can we possibly detect a deity, and even we see what resembles a deity, there is no way to confirm it through senses alone.

Humans never made progress relying on their senses outright. 

The famous scene in Star Wars where Luke was asked why he turned off his targeting computer, is bullshit. It makes for feel good movie drama, but if Sully Sullenberger had taken the same approach, he wouldn't have landed a passenger jet successfully in an emergency landing on the Hudson river.

In reality, if I were advising Luke, and he turned off his targeting computer, I'd fucking cuss his ass out.